Is there something wrong with my coffee taste?

UNM

on 1388560330:

Re - single / double baskets Until you are proficient in using your machine use a double basket for single shots, then when you are confident use the single KK

I mostly agree with the above, except the last bit. When you are proficient. use the double.  Coffee is good, why restrict yourself. But more seriously, a quick look at the shape of the two baskets shows that they are very different, therefore behaviour of the fluid flowing through will be different.  Think about it - the fluid comes in the top over a certain area. In a double basket it pretty much goes straight through the coffee puck. In a single basket, the fluid starts on a wide surface area, then is concentrated by the narrowing walls and flows faster through the grounds at the bottom of the basket due to the same volume going through a smaller surface area. If you really want a smaller short black, just use part of the shot. This brings me on to another little experiment you may like to try. Pre-warm three espresso cups. When extracting your shot, allow one third of the shot to go into the first, then replace with the second cup for the mid pour and collect the last third in the remaining cup. Taste the three samples separately. They will be noticeably different and you can then use the flavours/aromas/body from each phase of the extraction as a means to tweak your extractions to improve the aspects you like and minimise those you don't.

FreshCoffee2

Oh and following on from my own last post. I only skim this stuff quickly (no disprespect intended) so may have missed it if someone else has already said: Noted you used beans bought from the supermarket to help you learn about technique  and set up.....and that you are waiting on some excellent fresh roasted beans to arrive from Jeff  In that case just be aware that the fresh beans will undoubtedly have a higher density that supermarket beans (due to staling) so the grind setting that your grinder is now set to, will *probably* be too fine for the new bean supply. All you can do is clear out grinder, leave it where it is set, put the new beans in, and work your magic. The flow of resulting coffee will show you which way to go with the grind setting (probably more coarse, possibly significantly more coarse). Just wait and see. If you have to make a change or changes, dont forget to run *existing* grinds right out so the next coffee you make will indeed reflect the change in grind setting. Hope that helps.

askthecoffeeguy

Out of interest what kind of grinder are you using LMZ? Because this will have a big impact uoon shot quality And I'm a big fan of haudralic tampers for consistent tamping pressure... ACg

lmz

Hi ACg, Grinder is IBERITAL Challenger. Not high end but good value for money and seems to grind fine enough. UNM, I like your thinking and will do the 1/3 pour testing. Thanks FreshCoffee I have noticed the need for grind adjustment with fresh beans.. Regarding dosing I feel that 14g is really not enough to fill up the double basket. I will make some photos and post later on. thanks again. Laurent

Koffee_Kosmo

The weight of grinds that a basket can hold will vary from machine to machine They all have different group dispersion head and PF lock positions and will vary up or down on weight The weight of ground coffee will also vary on the grind you choose e.g - with fine grind you can fit more in the basket and less if you grind course due to larger particle size The method I taught you will be unique and tuned to your machine It applies to any basket you use Having said that you can also replace your basket to an 18 gram double and see how it goes? Almost time to break open that bag of beans I roasted for you Laurent

Brett H

on 1388963648:

The weight of grinds that a basket can hold will vary from machine to machine They all have different group dispersion head and PF lock positions and will vary up or down on weight The weight of ground coffee will also vary on the grind you choose e.g - with fine grind you can fit more in the basket and less if you grind course due to larger particle size The method I taught you will be unique and tuned to your machine It applies to any basket you use Having said that you can also replace your basket to an 18 gram double and see how it goes? Almost time to break open that bag of beans I roasted for you Laurent

Our KK... As generous as he is clever!!  :thumb: The Iberterial Challenge is an excellent grinder!  Enjoy the journey LMZ!

lmz

Thanks to KK I have been trying his roast but my shots are still too sour. I have then increased dosage with finer grind and managed to get a bit more sweetness. Dropping the first 2/3 sec of the pour gets most of the bitterness out. Have tried Jeff's roast but I think a bit too early to comment. In my search for better shot I tumbled into this great chart (apology if you guys already know this). http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-guide-good-extractions.html Anyway still trying to get organised for some pics Laurent

C-man

A good read, but does not say, what causes a "Burnt taste" I know it is not the beans.

Koffee_Kosmo

Sour taste is from 1) Beans roasted light and not rested enough 2) Water and or PF is cool at extraction Burnt tasted is from 1) Over roasted beans past the caramelisation point 2) Hot or boiling water at extraction point KK

lmz

Thanks KK your are a gem as usual;) I will make sure PF is properly warmed after multiple pour. What about strong and too much bitterness (this is what I have been getting)? Also I get lots and lots of yellowish pale thick cream that tends to dissipate quickly... How so I fix... Finer grind/more dose/stronger tamp? It is a journey indeed! Laurent

Koffee_Kosmo

Bitterness and other flavour issues  stem from the grind and tamp Too fine a grind - and you may experience woody flavours and can also be called bitter Too course a grind - and all the aromatic oils are not extracted fully So a happy medium grind with appropriate tamp will be the best in most situations KK

C-man

on 1389176104:

Sour taste is from 1) Beans roasted light and not rested enough 2) Water and or PF is cool at extraction Burnt tasted is from 1) Over roasted beans past the caramelisation point 2) Hot or boiling water at extraction point KK

The "burnt taste" was not the beans because OG wound great shots from the same My Cuppa beans so it could only be the temp?

UNM

Finer grind and slightly smaller dose might get a darker, richer crema as it will slow the extraction. Always hard to find the exact balance you want for your machine and palate preference. Perseverance will pay off though.

Ol Grumpy

Another curious difference... I use around 20-21g shot and the extraction is typically 30 ml +\- with the Rossa. C-man was dosing slightly higher and extracting up to 60ml of gorgeous tiger stripe (no blooding) in the same 25-30 secs with his Rancillo.

Ronin

Hi LMZ Try adding a small amount of hot water to the espresso. Some call it a 'Shlong' or short long. Just takes the edge off the flavour & can be tasty. If you go back to LTD espresso & brew bar you will get a good example. Have you tried beans from cup coffee? Might be a flavour you like too

lmz

AH AH AAAH This morning first shot; I thought to let go the 14g / 25sec rule and go with some comments from Old_Grumpy (20g coffee) and KK's dosage method he told me to do. I filled up the double basket as much as I could, distributed evenly. Firm usual tamp. NAILED IT !  It was the first good shot....finally! I did two more shots (to check if that was not luck); not as good as first pour but definitely drinkable and nice. the following video was very helpful for dosing and espresso pour quality Now practice practice practice and my next step is going to look at roasting equipment and technique! thanks all very much Laurent

C-man

on 1389276467:

Another curious difference... I use around 20-21g shot and the extraction is typically 30 ml +\- with the Rossa. C-man was dosing slightly higher and extracting up to 60ml of gorgeous tiger stripe (no blooding) in the same 25-30 secs with his Rancillo.

Yes, I was extracting double the amount you were, may have made a difference if I was stopping the shot shorter, but it just looked so good coming from your bigger burr grinder. I have  wound down the P-stat to lower the temp. and no longer have the "burnt taste" but still not as good as yours I was very impressed with the Rossa, it is really a lever quality  shot,  just using a winder instead of a lever.  you should get the gauge, if you could start the shot  at 12bar then taper down to 6bar you should have the best shot. this is what I found when I had the dimmer and gauge with my old SB, 12 bar extracts the best flavors but will blond early that is why it needs to drop in the middle of the shot and if you drop pressure even more at the end you will extract more sweet notes. sorry  to hi- jack the thread C-

thebookfreak58

You guys need to head to LTD and get Luke to show you some profiling magic on the Strada EP... Will confirm everything you've said above C-Man

Brett H

on 1389299008:

AH AH AAAH This morning first shot; I thought to let go the 14g / 25sec rule and go with some comments from Old_Grumpy (20g coffee) and KK's dosage method he told me to do. I filled up the double basket as much as I could, distributed evenly. Firm usual tamp. NAILED IT !  It was the first good shot....finally! I did two more shots (to check if that was not luck); not as good as first pour but definitely drinkable and nice. the following video was very helpful for dosing and espresso pour quality Now practice practice practice and my next step is going to look at roasting equipment and technique! thanks all very much Laurent

Great stuff all around guys.  I've not tried Ronin's suggestion but he's a man that knows a good brew and how to make one.  I'll try them next week!!! Welcome to the home-barista fraternity L.  Careful now or you'll end up with a big collection of grinders and multiple coffee machines as success will lead to obsession.  :thumb: Ooo TBF58, that sounds good too!

C-man

on 1389303021:

You guys need to head to LTD and get Luke to show you some profiling magic on the Strada EP... Will confirm everything you've said above C-Man

I would enjoy that, next time I  am down that way I will for sure, thanks Tim.

Ol Grumpy

on 1389303021:

You guys need to head to LTD and get Luke to show you some profiling magic on the Strada EP... Will confirm everything you've said above C-Man

Can someone tell me pls, Where and what is 'LTD'?

thebookfreak58

on 1389308017:

Can someone tell me pls, Where and what is 'LTD'?

https://www.facebook.com/Ltdespressobrewbar Brisbane/Australia/World's best cafe for 2013 as voted by Beanhunter

C-man

Looks  like they have  a paddle machine similar to a slayer hard to tell from the photos.

Ronin

on 1389312926:

Looks  like they have  a paddle machine similar to a slayer hard to tell from the photos.

It's a La Marzocco Strada EP with some beautiful timber work so very similar to my paddles for the La Marzocco GS that  you'd think they came from the same piece of timber.  Probably cause they did  :D

on 1389303021:

You guys need to head to LTD and get Luke to show you some profiling magic on the Strada EP... Will confirm everything you've said above C-Man

Not so sure he'll confirm everything that was said. Max pressure depends greatly on the pre infuse time & pressure, and never to 12 bars cause the machine won't go that high. Not just Luke there, you might be surprised who else is behind that machine at times 

thebookfreak58

on 1389316941:

It's a La Marzocco Strada EP with some beautiful timber work so very similar to my paddles for the La Marzocco GS that  you'd think they came from the same piece of timber.  Probably cause they did  :D Not so sure he'll confirm everything that was said. Max pressure depends greatly on the pre infuse time & pressure, and never to 12 bars cause the machine won't go that high. Not just Luke there, you might be surprised who else is behind that machine at times 

Oooh you may have made me a few then Ronin Sorry, I totally agree 12bar is far too high. My comment is more, as the shot progresses, dropping to 5~6bar to stabilize the shot as the puck is extracted

lmz

Hi Guys, I went to LTD Espresso a few weeks ago (I live nearby). The espresso shot I had was very Italian style (I went to Italy last year in June): short short, intense, full body, without thick crema layer. Too strong for my liking. But I understand this may be what to expect from a short black here in Oz. Being French single origin myself we are a bit more picky .... some would say snobby (!) :):) Very nice espresso bar though. Laurent

askthecoffeeguy

Hey LMZ I would say shop around until you find a shot that you like, and then reverse engineer it! Find out what beans and what roast profile went into the shot and how it was extracted, and then you have a benchmark of sorts for the type of coffee that you like In essence every speciality coffee shop will have something different to offer, and each will vary according to bean selection, roast profile, method of extraction, days 'post roast' on the coffee, and depending upon whos on the machine at the time!

Ol Grumpy

ACG, I'm not sure where you live, regardless.... You must be an extremely lucky guy....! With the utmost of respect... It was simply because I couldn't find a coffee shop that could deliver me a shot I really loved that I decided I had to make my own... Haven't looked back since....

lmz

I am with you on that one OldGrumpy... The reason why I started home espresso is because when I first came in Austalia (Brisbane) 10yo I found it very hard to get a nice short black. Cappuccino very good but espresso NO. Still today I am very wary of ordering an espresso in a coffee shop around here. Having said that ACG is right in saying that sometimes we can find some nice coffee flavours in some unexpected places (Local japanese restaurant has got great coffee!). Then it is a matter to track down the roaster By the way I see few QLDers here. Some Brisbane based. Do you guys catch-up sometimes? Anyone interested in coffee shot sampling / sharing / discussing ? I am in New Farm. Laurent

Ronin

I think we all started down the home coffee slippery slope in search of a better coffee. Have you tried Cup Specialty Coffee LMZ? Might be a flavor you enjoy and can try it in a number of places around Brisbane. There has been some get togethers but are probably due for another.