Why are grinders so important?

Cuir Beluga

Hi all, I know that the grinder is important but I want to know why. I mean, it just crushes coffee beans. Right? Wrong? Clearly I am looking at it simplistically.

Please explain  ^-^.


As a side my Icona has a ripped filter rubber thingy  :mad:.

Thanks, Sue.

FreshCoffee2

Hi Sue, use the hi-fi analogy (or even the computer analogy...garbage in, garbage out)  In terms of hi-fi. You can have the best and most expensive amplifier in all of the universe, and if you feed it a crap signal (say a $49.00 CD player), all your amp can do is amplify the crap signal it has been fed...which in this case is the signal from the $49.00 CD player. If you instead team your amp up with a (say, just for example) "matching" $1000.00 CD player that sends a better signal, then your amp can amplify the better signal and give you a far less distorted, less linear, and more well rounded or "sweeter" sound. The source needs to be of good quality (and before that, the quality of the beans you put in the grinder). Simple as that    Can help with the Icona/...

Cuir Beluga

That analogy works for me thanks Fresh Coffee as hubby likes his quality sound  . Will PM you in regards to the Icona. Thanks .

Moon

A good grinder is most likely designed and manufactured using better quality materials in order to produce a higher standard of grounds - by passionate coffee lovers for passionate coffee lovers. I'll stick my neck out here and say people who produce 'quality' items would 'care' more. An ordinary grinder that just gets the job done is most likely manufactured by people only concerned with producing grinders aimed at a Kmart customer market to maximise sales and make profit. They know these customers looking for a cheapie aren't fussed about making a 9+/10 coffee .. otherwise they would've done their research .. and found out that you get what you pay for. Fortune favours the brave n all that  :D Think of a blender. Why do some people buy a $70 blender when others will pay $300? Same with cars .. some are only concerned with getting from A to B .. while others place more emphasis on the quality of the ride so that they can enjoy the whole experience .. and not just arriving at their destination. With coffee, to get the best results .. each stage of the process needs to be done well .. like the chain is only as strong as its weakest link. A good grinder is designed to achieve a better outcome .. you get out of it what you put in .. like Fresh Coffee said. Crucial elements in making a good coffee include the extraction process .. and what governs this is mainly the grind ..  (temperature, water pressure) The aim is to extract the flavours, get a good texture .. with a nice dollop of tasty crema. Several factors come into play to achieve this. Consistency of the shot is always a challenge .. and in order to achieve the best results .. you need to be able to take responsibility for that yourself and not point the finger at your equipment.. so having the good gear eliminates the tradesman or tradeswoman blaming their tools... which, of course leads to improvement in the budding baristas method and results along the journey. Written by a relative n00by  :angel:

Cuir Beluga

Thank you Mr Moon, that all makes perfect sense to this even noobier .

Brett H

Great thread and replies folks!  For me a quality grinder is a precision instrument.  Consistent grinds make for consistent extractions and you are paying for better quality materials, build and robustness!

Cuir Beluga

Thanks Brett and everyone . Quality in = quality out  :coffee2:.

kbilleter

For an exaggerated demonstration, try grinding a few different sizes into a basket and compare the coffee with a dialed in more consistent grind, then you'll know if it's something to care about :-).  I find cleanliness is pretty important too, so if your grinder tends to retain grinds, you'll want to clean it more often.  I tend not too think of it just in terms of good/bad quality but which way you want to cut through the combination of solidity / bling / consistency / price / footprint / ease of use / cleanliness / speed etc...

Brett H

on 1429917539:

For an exaggerated demonstration, try grinding a few different sizes into a basket and compare the coffee with a dialed in more consistent grind, then you'll know if it's something to care about :-).  I find cleanliness is pretty important too, so if your grinder tends to retain grinds, you'll want to clean it more often.  I tend not too think of it just in terms of good/bad quality but which way you want to cut through the combination of solidity / bling / consistency / price / footprint / ease of use / cleanliness / speed etc...

Yep!  Spot on and well said too! Welcome  :thumb:

Cuir Beluga

Thanks guys. The grinder always gets a good clean out after each bag of beans .

askthecoffeeguy

my Mazzer Super Jolly wont fit on the bench at home so ive shelved it and im using a sunbeam cafe series as well which has had a bit of a hammering - so im in the process of ordering some new blades for it grinder is important because you want even particles without sharp or rough edges in order to get the most out of your extraction - what im noticing with the sunbeam is that im either choking or gushing the shots because the blades have a fair amount of wear and tear on them of course there are ways to compensate for this by adjusting dose and tamp pressure etc, and the coffee still tastes great - but it irks me coz i know that it would taste better still with a tighter extraction! new blades here I come! P

obnic

It's a lot to do with burrs. Good, big burrs, have a long grind path and time to shear the bean rather than crush it.  Shearing results in less variation of grind size because the beans do not fracture. Big variation means that when you pull your shot, fine particles will over extract (bitter) whilst too big particles will under extract (sour).  The ones the right size extract just right but the cup is muddied by the flavours from the two other extremes.  If you really want to taste the coffee as the grower and roaster intend it then a good grinder will get you closer - like a good quality lens in a telescope. There are subjective differences between burr types too.  A good big conical shears elliptical particles that can deliver amazing mouthfeel and range of flavours.  A good big flat burr tends to deliver more spherical particles with subjectively better clarity between flavours for lighter roasted beans. Big burrs require big torquey motors to turn them.  Especially if you aim to turn them slowly so that you avoid the risks of (a) crushing rather than shearing the beans just because your grinder is too aggressive (fast) creating loads of fines and (b) heating the beans through friction because everything is rubbing together fast. The best market for these high quality grinders are the higher volume cafes so good burrs and big motors tend to go hand in hand with 'army' build quality because baristas in these places are banging out three or four shots a minute. All this adds up to cost but also to startling results in the cup.  Add an innovation premium to that (Mythos One) or short supply (EK43) and you can see crazy prices happening.

Cuir Beluga

Thank you obnic and welcome .

Brett H

Wow Obnic... What a great post!  Thank you! 

Moon

on 1430241748:

It's a lot to do with burrs. Good, big burrs, have a long grind path and time to shear the bean rather than crush it.  Shearing results in less variation of grind size because the beans do not fracture. Big variation means that when you pull your shot, fine particles will over extract (bitter) whilst too big particles will under extract (sour).  The ones the right size extract just right but the cup is muddied by the flavours from the two other extremes.  If you really want to taste the coffee as the grower and roaster intend it then a good grinder will get you closer - like a good quality lens in a telescope. There are subjective differences between burr types too.  A good big conical shears elliptical particles that can deliver amazing mouthfeel and range of flavours.  A good big flat burr tends to deliver more spherical particles with subjectively better clarity between flavours for lighter roasted beans. Big burrs require big torquey motors to turn them.  Especially if you aim to turn them slowly so that you avoid the risks of (a) crushing rather than shearing the beans just because your grinder is too aggressive (fast) creating loads of fines and (b) heating the beans through friction because everything is rubbing together fast.

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Hi .. I'm no expert .. but it appears we have one on board .. so I thought I'd throw some hunches out there .. and get an education  8)

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on 1430241748:

A good big conical shears elliptical particles that can deliver amazing mouthfeel and range of flavours.  A good big flat burr tends to deliver more spherical particles with subjectively better clarity between flavours for lighter roasted beans.

True or False? A conical burr achieves the range of flavours - because the particles are varied in size .. which means that more flavours are exposed to hot water during the extraction process - resulting in more layers of different flavours being drawn out from the grinds into the cup? True or false? a) A flat burr will result in the particles being ground a more consistent size? b) Consistent size of particles means the flavours extracted are all of a similar dimension .. meaning that the range of flavours are limited? c) Flat burr grinders achieve more clarity because there are more particles of the same size .. and therefore .. there are more flavours in the cup that are exposed to the hot water that are available from that particular particle size. In other words .. there are less layers of flavour and more of the same .. meaning your taste buds are better able to hone in .. and identify the flavour. More flavours = less clarity Example If you were using a plunger .. would you end up with a broader range of flavours say, from a single origin bean .. if the grinds were of all the same particle size .. or of different sizes? My guess .. is different sizes. True or false? d) The main reason why the particles/grinds need to be of similar size is to achieve consistency in the pour time and reduce channeling?

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True or False? a) The motors of Large Commercial conical (and flat burr) grinders spin the burrs way too fast. It is not necessary .. and the result could be significant if the beans were ground at a much slower speed? b) If the grind speed was lowered to what it perhaps should be .. the motor would have to be much more powerful .. and therefore more expensive. Are the manufactures avoiding the cost .. or does putting a more powerful motor mean that it would need to be larger to accommodate it? True or false? a) Large commercial grinders are not superior to smaller domestic grinders .. they are only made larger and more robust to cope with a larger workload. It does not mean it can grind beans better .. just more of them over its lifetime .. and less breakdowns relative to its greater use? b) Large grinders may be made of superior quality materials and design .. but does its larger size .. decrease grind quality? You don't need a tank to get you from A to B ..... unless you are in a War.  Is a Commercial grinder overkill .. and sacrificing a good quality domestic machine in the home? Ok .. lets call a Commercial grinder a Range Rover .. good for the tough travel .. only I'll take an Audi, Merc, or BMW thanks.  :thumb: Cheers everyone ... thanks for listening ... come back again soon  :thumb:

obnic

So many questions Moon [emoji1] I'm not sure about the causality of flavour profiles from different burrs so I'll duck that line of questioning. The best commercial grinders are better than the best domestic grinders in that their grinds will extract better.  They use bigger (longer cutting path) burrs, more torquey engines, some grind very slowly (Ceado E92), some manage temperature (Mythos One), they work to tighter tolerances (keeping the burrs parallel), and use more resilient construction values. This does not mean that they are necessarily home user/kitchen friendly: they can be huge, retain lots of grinds, and even be noisy.  Many can be adapted for single dosing (no retention) though.  And I'm certainly not saying all commercials are good.  I am saying that in my experience the best big commercials are way better than home grinders. I'm not sure you can say flat burr = more uniform grind either.  It does seem that Mahlkoenig are aiming at more uniform grind though following the resurgence of the EK43.  It's flat burrs are notable for the more uniform grind but it's not designed to be single dosed (on/off/on/off) hundreds of times a day in a busy cafe.  So they're bringing out the Peak which looks a lot like a K30 but has new burrs which are designed to deliver a more uniform particle size. I have played with: Eureka Mignon (loved it because it's quality and utterly unpretentious), Mazzers Mini E (weak, no advance on Mignon), Super Jolly (better), Royal (very good), Robur (excellent), EK43 (remarkable but not my style of espresso), Versalab M3 (drive shaft prevents burrs from operating parallel), Mythos (very good), Ceado E92 on its way.  All ratings refer to in the cup performance (ie completely subjective, feel free to disagree). If you just judge on taste, good commercials go further than home grinders reach.  It's not just that they are stronger, although they are designed for heavy workloads.  OK that's enough from me. I'm an enthusiastic amateur not a professional. [emoji1]

Moon

on 1430393829:

  OK that's enough from me. I'm an enthusiastic amateur not a professional. [emoji1]

Blimey ... not bad for an amateur I must say. Love your work  :thumb: Hope you stick around .. or at least pop in occasionally.  8) Next

obnic

You know one of the best resources for all the stuff is your very own Matt Perger at Barista Hustle and his mate Ben Kaminsky.  These guys go very deep into the science of grinders and extraction.  Well worth a read.  http://baristahustle.com/hustles/

Moon

Nice find obnic .. my kind of site. Cheers for that  :thumb:

Brett H

Great stuff.... I lasted after the Versalab for many years but you've burst my dream bubble.  Say it isn't so!!

cosmic_couple22

Sorry BretH the best Versalab's are the heavily modded ones, but who doesn't enjoy tweaking their equipment. I will give the barista hustle a plug as well, lots of great information being shared that will help anyone on their coffee journey. Chester

Brett H

The idea is so clean but  :'(