Difference between PNG and Indonesian beans

West Village

This may be a strange question given there are major differences in bean characteristics from farm to farm let alone country to country.

Is the major difference of beans in both these areas mainly the processing methods? I'm talking mainly the original bourbon varietals.

They both have really nice deep body but does the processing methods give the indo's a heavier body to the PNG?

Do the PNG's have more fruitiness and less "forest floor" type characteristics as a generality ?

I've always used the indos in my blends for body but lately have switched to using PNG and I'm thrilled. It doesn't seem to have as heavier body but brings some fruitier complexity to the blend without dominating it at the lower end. Thoughts?

Brett H

Like grapes there are many different pieces to the puzzle including varietal, terrior, processing and post production storage then application.  Our own modest coffee tree here yielded 2 kg twice a year and we gave it a go twice in the same year  (2014 for FUN).  The results both times were terrific but while not dissimilar, I would not have picked them as the same tree.  This is despite us changing nothing in our processing.  The weather changed I suppose and the whole process made me respect the growers and farmers.... and not obsess about coffee prices ever again!!

LeroyC

The only PNG coffee I've tried is a beautiful coffee. It's an Ulya A, which I don't think is available in Australia at the moment. It's not super easy to roast, but when you get it right the results are fantastic. More similar to a washed Kenyan maybe than an Indonesian. I believe most PNGs are washed arabicas and while they are still improving the good ones can be quite good. Some of the peaberries are quite good apparent. Indonesia on the other hand sees quite noticeable flavour differences between the islands. I've tried an FTO Timor, a Mandehling or two and a Sulawesi. All were different with the Mandehling suffering the famed wet hulling processing method and the Timor and Sulawesi (Kalosi) being fully washed. I wasn't a huge fan of any of them to be honest, but would probably pick the Timor out of the three. The PNG was much better IMO, mostly due to its sweetness, but it still had enough body to hold its own against other medium bodied coffees.

West Village

Yes I never rated the PNG coffee I had but it all came down to how I was roasting it. The last few have really impressed me. Roasting to medium, making sure I hit development time between 20-25% and keeping it fairly simple has yielded some pleasing results. I'm enjoying how well balanced it is. Enough body, enough acidity ( I don't like to much acidity but a little), enough sweetness without overwhelming in each section. I read somewhere that the original PNG coffee plants had some similarities with regards to characteristics to Jamaica blue coffee given it was the same seeds that were planted on the island. I was actually born in goroka which is in the eastern highlands of PNG also a renowned coffee region within PNG . My parents got me out of there pretty quick after I was born as it was and probably still is a very tribalistic and dangerous in parts. Wish I was able to sample the farming experience! Would love to go back one day to do an origin tour of the place!

askthecoffeeguy

I'm a big fan of png  coffees I find them chocolatey  and fruity most of the time with earthy flavours and the tend to be more approachable younger than their Indonesian  neighbours I often use png  as the  base for my blends for this reason and I find that they suit the coffees of  East Africa  particularly  well Indo.coffees to me are often associated with dense notes.notes . and spice textures which I find rounds out a blend particularly  well in smaller  quantities I also find indo coffees particularly those of Sumatra  take 7 to 10 days post roast to come into their own - what can seem bitter one day can be rounded and velvety the next - and.this needs to  be taken into account especially if time is a constraint The trick with PNG is to use high quality beans and grading as the cheaper ones, which still taste good, tend to vary in size and grading which makes for uneven roasting P

West Village

Agree completely Pat. A milder body than the indos, amazing fruity aroma also. I'd love to get my hands in some okapa beans from goroka one day. Would love to try the difference between the eastern and western highlands. Have you had any experience with eastern highland PNG coffees? I just pulled the trigger on a couple KG's of Kimel and upon your recommendation a couple kilo of Kenya AA to blend alongside it and the columbian. How dark do you take them when roasting? On the verge of 2C or you pull them much earlier?

askthecoffeeguy

on 1492592499:

Agree completely Pat. A milder body than the indos, amazing fruity aroma also. I'd love to get my hands in some okapa beans from goroka one day. Would love to try the difference between the eastern and western highlands. Have you had any experience with eastern highland PNG coffees? I just pulled the trigger on a couple KG's of Kimel and upon your recommendation a couple kilo of Kenya AA to blend alongside it and the columbian. How dark do you take them when roasting? On the verge of 2C or you pull them much earlier?

On the behmor i often pull the kenya at the first snips of second crack otherwise i find i dont get enough roast depth - probably coz they're a sturdier bean which has been air dried so I tend to push them a bit further than wet processed p

West Village

I wish I was in the importation game as I've got some potentially valuable links with coffee farmers in Flores and PNG. Ever tried any Flores beans? I haven't yet but I'm interested in their profile in comparison to surrounding. area What also appeals to me is the lack of chemicals/pesticides used by some of these farmers due to the remoteness and affordability .  Also the fact that the co-ops are very village driven in which the majority of the profits are returned. Having grown up in some of these villages it's rewarding to know. Feel they could and probably should  still earn more given the back breaking routes these guys travel to move coffee around the coops often without transport but such is life.

Brett H

I've had Flores beans and I'd have them again in an instant.  I loved them like people love Wahana!!

askthecoffeeguy

Yeah love my Flores beans they're big, bold, and brassy in flavour with forest floor and pine needle aromas predominating on an earthy and fruity palate with traces of spice and the just seem to get better with a bit of age on them I like mine 2 to 3 weeks post roast

West Village

They sound an interesting bean for a base in a blend. Are they too potent for a Single origin? I suppose that answer depends on each persons preferences. Do their processing methods and varietals differ much or are they all fairly similar? I'll have to try them next time they come available.

askthecoffeeguy

Haven't tried many only a couple but I enjoyed them tremendously as single origin Espresso. I also enjoy these coffees as pour overs as they seem to bring a lot of death to the profile

mycuppa

On the topic of Flores coffee. It's almost 7 years ago to the day when I attended a special event organized in conjunction with ASCAA - a day long seminar promoting the work of the ICCR (Indonesian Coffee Research Centre) at the Box Hill Institute in Melbourne (for the University of Sydney). Dr Jeff Neilsen and Tony Marsh (an expert in coffee agriculture) and both very smart coffee people, gave a highly detailed presentation on the coffee industry in Flores and we cupped numerous samples - ranging from defective to interesting.  It was an enjoyable day and surprisingly useful in terms of developing a point of reference for Flores coffees. Hard to imagine it was that long ago........a lot has changed over that 7 year period. Actually, 12 months in the coffee world is akin to literally 3 years in our normal day-to-day life - things in coffee change so fast. A lot of technical work was being applied to improving the farming and processing of Flores coffees and I had hoped with high expectations that by now we would have been able to source, roast and extract quality Flores coffees on a regular, ongoing basis. Unfortunately, I'd have to say that to date, given they started earnestly in 2009 and with superb technical credentials, it can't be deemed a success. Where are the results ? Why don't the brokers regularly have offers available for great Flores lots ? I'm yet to see such coffees available and I'm not entirely sure what people are referring to when they talk of experiences with Flores coffees because the stock simply has not been easily available to purchase in any real terms in Australia. It's possible that some Sumatrans have been called Flores to create a point of difference or distinction. I just don't know.......not doubting anyone, but when I've spent the last 7 years peering through a precise lens of incoming coffees and not seeing much in the way of Flores, I have to wonder out loud = maybe they were branded as Sumatrans, who knows.....it could be a case of the identity being lost in the vast Indo realm.......Flores is just not appearing as a discrete or distinct origin. I am constantly in contact with the major brokers every other day and I'm not aware of any (or many) coffees from Flores coming onto the Australian market at any stage. Of course, the odd lot may land, but it's a rarity. Whilst MTC recently had a small holding of less than a pallet (barely 12 bags), by any measure these academic improvement projects would be considered as failures if that's all there is to show of the work. Maybe it's been the climate changes (higher rainfalls), a lack of infrastructure (economics) or a range of other factors that constrain the opportunities for success. Given the expertise and credentials of the invested experts, coupled with a general lack of any real data/information coming out of that region, it's probable or even reasonable to consider that Flores coffee is still in it's infant development stage and not regarded as a "true player" on the global coffee origin stage. Perhaps other countries have scooped up the limited harvests and Australia has not had any offers extended - who knows. In terms of the commentary about differences between PNG and Indonesian coffees - in a nutshell, it's the same story you can say about Indo's and every other origin, so it's not about PNG because they have remarkable similarities to Colombia, Honduras, Costa Rica, etc..........whereas Indonesians are materially different to everything else due to their predominant processing method of wet hulled. Geographical proximity plays no part in such comparisons and should not be considered as exhibiting some or any attributes whatsoever. In other words its just as simple to compare an Indo to a Colombian in terms of "why are they different".

mycuppa

on 1492592499:

Agree completely Pat. A milder body than the indos, amazing fruity aroma also. I'd love to get my hands in some okapa beans from goroka one day. Would love to try the difference between the eastern and western highlands. Have you had any experience with eastern highland PNG coffees? I just pulled the trigger on a couple KG's of Kimel and upon your recommendation a couple kilo of Kenya AA to blend alongside it and the columbian. How dark do you take them when roasting? On the verge of 2C or you pull them much earlier?

Eastern Highlands PNG coffees are more common than most people think. In fact, it may surprise many that a big portion of the PNG coffees we drink here in Australia are sourced from that region. For my own business, we source pretty big numbers in high grade lots from this area every year. Kimel has changed considerably over the years. Historically there were some great lots (specifically the Kimel Peaberrys), but there have also been many disappointments and inconsistencies. Not sure that today it actually lives up to the past reputation, but I wish you good luck.

vyapada

on 1492853278:

Unfortunately, I'd have to say that to date, given they started earnestly in 2009 and with superb technical credentials, it can't be deemed a success.

It's not clear to me your criteria for success - branding or quality of coffee? Thanks

mycuppa

Perhaps re-read the post again. In case the point is missed - If after 7 years of invested effort, there is nothing to show for it......no coffee........particularly considering some quite acceptable coffees already existed in Flores with potential back in 2010, a simple conclusion of failure is both valid and fair. With no follow through within the global coffee community over such a long period, a cone of silence around the origin in terms of what is actually going on inside it's local coffee industry.........the failure may have been uncontrollable from within the coffee program or it's local industry. Other origins have suffered perhaps more catastrophic events and yet bounced back.

West Village

Thanks Mycuppa appreciate the really interesting history of the projects that have been underway in Flores. It's a shame those projects have failed as it's always good to hear about new or lesser known origins come into the scene and present the market with something new to discover of noteworthiness. One of which  I'm following closely with interest currently is Burma/Myanmar. Any planned projects or thoughts for that area?

LeroyC

on 1493122291:

Thanks Mycuppa appreciate the really interesting history of the projects that have been underway in Flores. It's a shame those projects have failed as it's always good to hear about new or lesser known origins come into the scene and present the market with something new to discover of noteworthiness. One of which  I'm following closely with interest currently is Burma/Myanmar. Any planned projects or thoughts for that area?

Yeah Myanmar does look interesting doesn't it. I've also read a couple of articles about it. I hope it works out for them.

vyapada

"re read the post" Really? Do you think that isn't patronising? No coffee on the market that you can see doesn't mean it doesn't exist. What were the outcomes that the presention listed?

askthecoffeeguy

I had some great coffee in Laos (that is when I could find some that wasnt roasted to the point of near incineration) and i was surprised to find that they dont export commercially - although I heard that was mainly due to geographical isolation in getting the coffee to market there used to be a cafe in melbourne in Flemington i think that used to fly it in out of Thailand and roast their own but in all fairness the coffee was good without IMHO being amazing P

askthecoffeeguy

also coffeesnobs has bought Flores coffee in from time to time probably in small parcels which is where I get my main frame of reference from but yeah not much and not often P

Brett H

on 1493177002:

also coffeesnobs has bought Flores coffee in from time to time probably in small parcels which is where I get my main frame of reference from but yeah not much and not often P

Yes, a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away.... I had Flores and Flores Research Project.  I really liked the latter interestingly the only bean from them I thought was better than any of my local offerings.  Kinda why I'm here and not there.  There's a lot to be said for fresh green beans I think.  The rule of threes for me is playing fast and loose with vibrancy and character IMHO.

oldboybewer

Being new here, what is PNG?    ote author=West Village link=topic=6258.msg56224#msg56224 date=1491691120] This may be a strange question given there are major differences in bean characteristics from farm to farm let alone country to country. Is the major difference of beans in both these areas mainly the processing methods? I'm talking mainly the original bourbon varietals. They both have really nice deep body but does the processing methods give the indo's a heavier body to the PNG? Do the PNG's have more fruitiness and less "forest floor" type characteristics as a generality ? I've always used the indos in my blends for body but lately have switched to using PNG and I'm thrilled. It doesn't seem to have as heavier body but brings some fruitier complexity to the blend without dominating it at the lower end. Thoughts? [/quote]

Simon

Papua New Guinea . Have roasted some up before, a PNG Mt Ambra and PNG Waghi AA, both different but quite delicious . And mostly never to SC, to me that destroyed alot of the incredible flavours, but sometimes got something really different at SC with the Ambra, really deep dark blackcurranty flavours..

askthecoffeeguy

I think that there are pronounced regional characteristics both from country to country and within each country I personally would be hesitant to lump Sumatra, Bali, and Flores together as I've have coffees from each that are very different p