Home Espresso

System

As a newbie to the coffee experience (although I never thought Homebrand was good coffee), I notice that most forum contributors are industry participants rather with few people who don't work in the industry but simply love a good espresso.

My question is, and in light of Crema Mag's latest two issues, what are real people's experiences with home espresso machines and grinders?

This is an open question, and I would love to hear from both professionals with their home machines as well as people who just love to brew their own at home.

I am in the market for my first real machine and grinder (sub $1000 combined), have spoken to professionals at coffee courses, read reviews on other sites, and it seems for every positive review, there is someone who has had a bad experience with a particular machine.

And I would rather avoid, if possible, the self-righteous banterings about that machine is cr@p or this machine is the best. I am after experience, if you know what I mean.

By the way, I have finally found a good barista in Crows Nest (Sydney) who actually gives a proverbial about his shots. Problem is his location is not the best and may suffer poor patronage.

Anyway, look forward to constructive responses.

Ciao

Pat

FreshCoffee2

Patrick,     buy a machine that can be demonstrated to operate *** to your expectation*** in the showroom. Individual consumers have very different expectations one from the other, and a responsible espresso machine vendor will try his best to fit the machine, to the buyer.     That effectively eliminates businesses that are not prepared to devote a machine to demonstration purposes.       It also knocks out the charlatans selling machines on the basis of looks rather than performance, of which there are some very serious examples in the Australian market.     As you have noted, for every machine that someone recommends, someone else bags it for one reason or another. See the note above regarding individual expectations. That means it's up to you to take the ultimate responsibility for your purchase. Decide carefully.     I recommend visiting a specialist espresso machine vendor close by, choose something you have heard good things about, and have it demonstrated. Someone who knows his stuff will give you an effective demonstration. Look and listen, if he recommends and can demonstrate some other model, do be open minded about it, you may find some other model you never even thought of (or that had been bagged by someone in a review), really does deliver your expectations if used in the proper manner. Most espresso machines with very few exceptions (if any) will make terrible coffee when used improperly by unskilled operators. If this is the source of bad experiences, you may have to be realistic about the cause.     Some final points.       a) Ask about after sales service and find out if the service agent is the seller, or someone else. Beware of service agents who are "appliance repairers". In my experience, appliance repairers fix appliances, but they don

Unknown

Thanks for the insightful, well, insight, Fresh Coffee. My objective is to by a machine and grinder for a less than $1000 spend which will serve my purposes for a couple of years prior to a serious upgrade (there are other financal objectives I have to meet as well). But, and I appreciate your points as, yes, I was driven to an extent by looks (you probably know the machines to which I refer). My priority now is a machine that can occasionally serve say 4 people (I don't entertain at home that frequently), but more often than not, simply for two people. The question then is, where are the good specialist vendors in Sydney (Nth Shore preferably, but have car will travel) who deal in the machines I have referred to? Thanks again for your advice. Cheers Patrick

admin

Hi Patrick (and other non-industry people) FYI, the trade page was intended for industry, but 'have your say' was always meant to be open to anyone who feels like they want to make a post... Ciao Admin

Unknown

Duly noted, admin. I guess can't let the customer get in the way of business (I am a cynical b#@$ard....I work in a different service industry which is structured for the benefit of the industry participants rather than the client....not necessarily saying that this is the same in your industry). Cheers

admin

Hi Patrick - thanks for your (slightly cryptic) message; not sure if you understood my meaning - just to clarify, people are very welcome to make a post on the 'have your say' thread, whether or not they are in the industry... ciao Admin  

Unknown

Incidentally, I bought a little Saeco which currently serves me well. Is it appropriate or otherwise to use a tamper with the 'crema porta-filter' that comes with the machine? Now I am looking at a grinder, and am considering the Isomac Inox as it doesn't have a secondary chamber for excess ground coffee to accumulate. Does anyone have any thoughts, experiences, etc for a grinder in the <$400 range? Anyone's advice will be appreciated (particularly if they are a distributor who wishes to give me a 20 year free trial - ;D) Patrick

FreshCoffee2

Hi Patrick, the manufacturer does not include a coffee tamper, or even a single filter with your machine, and it is intended for the "super crema" group handle to make the task of brewing espresso  at home by untrained operators, a lot easier than if the machine had been provided with conventional group handle and corresponding necessity to have a certain level of expertise. It works well as designed and my company has been selling two brand machines with these patented handles for over 15 years, with a lot of repeat business from happy customers both for machines and coffee. Some believe the above is codswallop and buy and use coffee tampers either in conjunction with the super crema group handle as provided with the machines or, some even go to the trouble of sourcing conventional group handles so they can employ the more conventional technique of brewing espresso. If you are happy with the way the machine performs and the quality of the espresso it produces, resist pressure from others to fix something that aint broke. If however you wish to see how the other 'arf does it, it's only money. Either way, you will get good espresso out of your machine. With regard to coffee grinders, there are a few different models about and if budget is an issue you can buy a good grinder for much less than the type mentioned, for the same quality of grind. There is no doubt however the one you mentioned looks great and that said, my company does handle it as well as one other also of very good quality. If you email me off list (by clicking on the blue FRESH COFFEE link at the top LHS of this post), I will be able to help you further. Happy brewing, FC.

Unknown

Thanks for the info FC (and the subtle plug!  :P). Currently, I am happy with the results from the Saeco, although, and I don't know if this is expected or not, but I rarely get a dryish puck out of the basket after I have pulled a shot. I wouldn't mind, perhaps in the future, trialling with a more manual group handle/portafilter (same thing, yes?) and tamping the coffee, just to have a bit more control and therefore experimentation with the machine....at this stage, I am just happy to get a thick crema and relatively silky foam. You didn't mention in your post anything about the 20 year free trial - I will email to discuss. Cheers Patrick

FreshCoffee2

Hi Patrick, Re: "........I rarely get a dryish puck out of the basket after I have pulled a shot....."   This is quite normal with the super-crema group handles, they always leave a sloppy mess in the filter. It's because of the nature of the beast as designed. With these type of machines you have to think oustide the square of conventional type espresso brewing. Re: "words to the effect of...might like to someday use a manual group handle and tamper...just to have a bit more control and therefore experimentation with the machine...." The super-crema group handle gives a very consistent result as long as you "feed" it with a consistent grind, and a consistent dose. With this handle, you can put any amount of grinds in it until it is full, and it will always brew a good crema however the strenght of the brew will vary. I suggest the best brew will result from "over" filling the dosing spoon so that it has a nice rounded pregnant look above the edge. Use this dose for each single coffee. Use good beans (this should be a given, however...). You cannot get enough coffee into the filter to make 2 good brews so I always make one coffee at a time with it. ALWAYS prewarm the cup, and purge the group of overhot water before inserting the group handle ( you can do both these things in the same operation). The coffee made with this setup, in this way, is very fullbodied, and smooth as a babies bottom... Dont mistake the smoothness for lack of "strenght"...you could be awake all night if you overindulge.   If you opt in future to go to a conventional group handle with single and double filters and coffee tamper, you will go backwards before going forwards as you suddenly have to develop a technique and expertise at using it properly, or the brew will be destroyed. When you have developed a proper technique, the brew will taste different to that which you get with the super-crema handle... that's just the nature of the game.   No I do not work for the manufacturer or any of the importers. My company did however import many of these type of machines in the past, I've sold thousands,  and I had one in my own home for around eight years. Once you develop a taste for the really smooth result that you get with the super crema handle, you accept it is different to espresso made with conventional methods, but like it for what it is (just like you are allowed to like many different chardonnays from different areas and winemakers as long as they are good). As a point of reference for you, the type of brew made with a machine using a supercrema handle, is very similar to the type of brew made with modern automatic espresso machines. Hows that for service? FC.

Unknown

Top service, FC  ;D One thing I learnt before I even got a machine was to warm the cups - that's why I don't buy takeaway, cardboard rarely keeps much heat. In a way, and it appears from what you have said, the super-crema group handle is great for those who want consistently good shots with little (or less) risk of screwing it up. And this is great, say, for times when there I am in more of a rush. Am I right in saying that you inferred that there is more risk of a bad shot with a 'regular' group handle because of the impact of more variables? ie, amount of coffee, tamp pressure, etc? If it does require a backward step to take a greater forward step, and also improve my appreciation for and understanding of the drink, then surely that is a suitable objective? I guess its a bit like an auto transmission vs a manual transmission. The former removes a bit of the driver influence for ease of use and consistency, but, with a manual, you do really drive the car, and you affect its performance more so, yes? Thanks again for your info Patrick

FreshCoffee2

ok that's enough........I am sick and tired of the bloody auto correct function on this site correcting something that there is nothing wrong with. It is changing (correcting???!) my term "dosing spoon", to "dosing sthingy". What the hell kind of lingo is that? Cheers to you all, FC.

FreshCoffee2

and there....it just did it again. Better go and have a bex and a bit of a lie down. FC.

FreshCoffee2

Hi Patrick, and in response to your last post, the answer to all of your questions bascically is ......yes. However there is just one further point. If you are achieving a good result with the machine as is (and yes you could draw the analogy to an auto transmission), some might say that in the long run it is far simpler to leave it the way it is and enjoy the ride.....Speaking as one who lives and breathes coffee and machines professionally, but who couldn't be bothered with the "precicesness" of it all when I get home, give me a nice upmarket autoespresso machine in my kitchen. Otherwise, the absolute best way to go, if you wish to pursue an interest in good home brew espresso after you have gone as far as you wish with the limited type of machine you have now, is to go properly upnmarket, hang the expense, and get into a good quality home use micro commercial. In the scheme of things, they are not as expensive as the figures first sound, especially when compared to the type of upmarket cars people get tied up with on lease, or the type of hi fi and home entertainment systems that people buy for the sake of quality of life. You will find the espresso machine is the cheaper of them all and falls in the same category....if it is the type if interest you as an individual wish to pursue. Then you will get the result you might be chasing. Email me. FC.

Unknown

FC, point noted...refer email. cheers Patrick

pab

Hi everyone... I got my little Krups around 6 months ago from my lovely wife as a birthday present. It's small, it's basic but it makes a great coffee. I tried to tell my brother, Patrick, that it was great, but he HAD to get a better machine... at least I can froth my milk :P Seriously, it has taken us a few months to perfect all the different aspects needed when making a great cup of coffee. As for the grinder, Patrick, I'll let you know about the Isomac after Christmas!!! I see the machines like a car - your first car (in most cases) is a cheap run around which you love dearly. As the years go buy, you upgrade until you find your dream machine....

Unknown

I'll jump in with my recommendation: Rancilio Silvia and Rocky IMO best value for about $1000 all up. You go straight up from there to the $1500 to $2000 category for HX machines such as the giotto or expobar For machne discussions try the newsgroup alt.coffee or www.coffeegeek.com both these resources need more Aussie input hope this helps

Unknown

Hey guys,         why not keep an eye out in the paper or go to the auctions and get "pre loved machines". If you are lucky you can pick them up for next to nothing. The money you save ..spend on a clean and service or do it your self. you then have a comercial grade espresso machine for very low cost, you can also pick up a grinder for a couple of hundred. Why settle for little dinky toys when you can use the real stuff and learn yourself how to make real coffee... just a thought. I would hate to spend all that money on machines and still not know how to make coffee. The pre loved one are a great way to learn and there are still plenty of good ones(and bad) out there. It is like buying an idiot proof camera...just aim and press the button.

FreshCoffee2

Hi Brian, as an experienced importer and trader in espresso coffee machines I have to strongly disagree with this suggestion. Over the years I have seen many machines purchased at auction subsequently brought to my company for "service". Machines at auction are frequently incomplete and inoperative, that's why they are at the auction and go cheap.   Repairs and supply of missing accessories frequently cost more than was paid for the machine and often, this causes despondency on the part of the new owner who misdirects his frustration at the service provider. It also causes a certain level of frustration from the service providers point of view when householders occupy copious amounts of time asking you for advice on how to (try to) service their "new" machine themselves... Many of these machines are obsolete and some were never commonly available in this country, so parts are hard to get and or the original importer, gone. In addition, the regular householder has no idea whether the machine being bid on was a good brewer even when it was operating. We see many examples of well known brand name coffee machines that just dont make good coffee...think of it being much the same as with motor vehicles, some handle better than others...   This is a "householders" nightmare rather than a good idea. Commercial espresso coffee machines are workhorses not objects of desire, they have a certain economic lifespan, after which they quickly become less and less "efficient" in terms of service and repair costs ( ands many times also from the point of view of quality of brew). They need looking after by understanding technicians, or if you like, by knowledgeable and handy householders. They are absolutely no good to, and frequently become money pits for unsuspecting householders intoxicated by all the coffee hoohaa getting around. I understand this will seem very biased and so be it, but the only way to buy a decent quality used, older commercial espresso machine is to go to a commercial coffee machine or coffee trader who is known NOT to be shonky and buy one that can be demonstrated to be operating well and making good coffee, is complete, serviced and ready to go. ie it might be old, but its "still got it".   Remember most commercial espresso machines require a plumbing connection, some form of drain, and if looking at a 2 group machine, they usually require a 15 amp electrical connection which means the householder will have to pay for electrical work as well as extra plumbing. They also take up to 30 minutes to come to operating temperature for your 1 or 2 cups, take up a massive amount of room and are generally not suitable for household use. They are also nice and warm and are frequently infested with roaches that are shortly destined to set up new camp in your home. Commercial espresso machines can be bought cheap especially when they are inoperative, but I dont think this really is the idea. FC.

Unknown

FC,   look at the sinlge group machines and yes you must be careful with what you buy, but for those who want a bit more involvment in their coffee making. I suppose I'm looking at it from my side and not the consumer. I have bought several machines from auction, some are in great working order and have been serviced and cleaned and the others are for the coffee acadamy, so the can be pulled apart so students can see the guts of them.

FreshCoffee2

Hello Brian,     you have raised a topic (commercial machines at home) that frequently comes up at work, and also mentioned you were looking at it from your own point of view, so it may be as well to expand the topic a little further from another point of view for the benefit of the reading public.     We get quite a number of people coming in to look at, and to buy "semi commercial" machines manufactured for home use. The description "semi-commercial" is interesting and means, a commercial design machine with a commercial group head, cut down to a size and placed (hopefully) into a nice looking body suitable for home use...and far too small to be suitable for commercial use but nevertheless having the same method of operation and quality (dependent on make and model of machine) of brew.  ie able to brew commercial style espresso while simultaneously able to deliver steam, and hot water.     So here's another few point of view:     If presented with the option to buy either a NEW good quality semi commercial, or an OLD fully commercial machine for my home for a similar price I would buy the new semi commercial. You get a full guarantee and a NEW machine that is small enough for a household kitchen, that will deliver the same quality (but not the same capacity - unnecessary at home) as the other. You do not have the unnecessary expense of shelling out for suitabe plumbing, draining and electrics, and you will not play host to someone elses roachnest.     An outlay of less than or equal to $2500.00 for a new semi commercial is FAR LESS than any other "expensive" household "appliance" or motor vehicle. Lots of people choose to lease or buy expensive middle/northern european motor vehicles, and many people are getting into plasma TV home entertainnment theatre and hi fi systems. Check out the number of people buying expensive appliances that have to to do with "quality of life" rather than "necessity", in department stores over the Christmas period.     Semi commercial machines bought new and under conditions of household use have a very very long lifespan, and can be repaired by commercial espresso machine or catering equipment repairers.   Think about it, all this makes a new $2500.00 semi-commercial home espresso machine look positively cheap in the scheme of things, as long as you are the kind of individual that this kind of thing apppeals to.  Why muck about with large, dirty old money pits that need repair? FC.

Unknown

FC, you make a valid point about a $2,500 semi-commercial (or, as part of the new vernacular - 'prosumer') machines maybe relatively inexpensive compared to a rapidly depreciating plasma screen tv costing $5000+. Whilst I don't disagree with your logic, I think in practice, people will take the view that "I spend a lot more time watching TV (inappropriately) so I can appreciate the difference in quality between a standard tube tv and a plasma screen, but only have one or two coffees at home a day". See my point? It may not be a logical thought process, but I am sure it is quite common. Particularly if, in conjunction with a review of some of the other topics discussed in these forums, most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference between good espresso and the crap they normally buy each morning. Patrick

FreshCoffee2

hI pATRICK, afraid I am in a "strongly disagree" mood again...!!! All our points of view are correct given the individual, except for perhaps one item. Just as with wine...give someone who says "I cant tell the difference anyway", a taste of their normal blend / brew, then follow up with something of outstanding quality and whalla, they CAN tell the difference. The difference is sometimes huge and sometimes not, however you open up a whole new world to them. Easily done with hi-fi as well. You CAN hear the difference... Whether they choose (for a multitude of other reasons) to do anything with their new found capacitiy to "tell the difference" or not, is well, something else to talk about.   Cheers, FC.

Unknown

Again, very valid points, FC, however, getting into my pragmatic mood, most people would say that, all else being equal, most $50 bottles of wine will taste better than a $25 bottle. However, they may rationalise that it doesn't taste twice as good, and therefore can not justify the expense, particularly for a consumerable. You may then argue, why do people, then, spend $2000 on a TV, if the picture is not TWICE as good as a $1000 telly? Perhaps it is status, perhaps it is perceived quality, I don't really know. But in terms of espresso, I would still contend that most people have not had fantastic espresso, but think the coffee they get (you know, the skim double decaf latte with a twist of lemon) IS fantastic because they haven't had any different. Therefore, if the $400 machine can produce a similar result, then, in their minds, they are making fantastic coffee at home. I must say there is nothing wrong with this approach anyway as it is all in the mouth of the beholder. As they say, the best wine is the one you like the best. Another point is that, for most people, I would contend that coffee just isn't important enough to justify the $2000+ spend, but justifies the <$1000 spend. For others, including myself, there is an element of trying the <$1000 first to determine if the passion is maintained for the home espresso (in my case, it definately is) before the increased spend on the upgrade. One final point is that, comparing to other consumer goods such as hi-fi's, cars, etc, is that people see the more expensive hi-fi's or tv's in their local department store, and other retail outlets alongside the cheaper versions. Therefore there is a more common point of comparison. I can walk into the local David Jones and compare the $2000 Grundig TV to the $500 Palsonic and make my own judgement. However, at the same department store, I can only compare home espresso machines ranging from $100 - $600 or so. As a general consumer, how would I know that I can spend more on a machine? How would I know what E61 means? Personally, I don't even know where my closest retailer of the upper models of espresso machines is (apart from www.). See my (many and laboured) points? Cheers Patrick

Andrew

Hi Patrick, I've moved up from a Krups to a Rancilio Silvia (12 months ago).  Having worked in hospitatlity for 8 years I consider myself fairly experienced at making espresso and being able to spot a good machine from a bad.  Personally auto's don't interest me at all and I think remove one from the experience of being part of the coffee chain.  Perhaps Australian consumers have been spoilt by drinking 3+ cups of machine extracted espresso a day and have forgotten that it's actually a pretty special event! My decision in choosing a Silvia was based on the obvious usage of componentry from their bigger commercial models (the sucker weights 14kg!) and a company history with genuine roots in the espresso machine industry.  This can't be said for many of the brands that commonly appear at retailers.  

Reschsmooth

Thanks for the response, Andrew  ;D I have read many good things about the Silvia. On a good note, I have finally decided to wisen up and give up the lung busters, cancer sticks, etc....ie, give up the smokes (yes, I never was too bright). Ideally, this will mean that after about a year, I will have $3,000 in my pocket rathern than $3,000 worth of tar in my lungs. This may then allow me to go from my little Saeco to something with a bit more steaming power, etc. Anyway, I agree, Andrew, that fully auto's don't cut it with me as well - why have beans sitting in a hopper connected to a heated machine? Why have a grinder attachment that can not easily be emptied if different beans are to be tried? Why lose the excitement of trying to perfect your espresso skills? Anyway, still after opinions in terms of the Saeco pressurised vs non-pressurised filter holders (and after Fresh Coffee's response to my other post in this topic... :P) cheers Patrick

dcbc

save your $3000 buy a grinder and a plunger, your money could go towards something more worth while, like women and booze, right andrew?

Andrew

dcbc - you forgot fast cars!  (Make mine a manual...)

FreshCoffee2

OK Patrick, when you're ready our new stock of Rancilio Silvia, matching Rocky grinder and Equipment Stand just arrived. Special discount for Forum participants prepared to blow their cover & identify themsleves at purchase! Cheers, FC.

FreshCoffee2

I like that idea! FC.