Doserless grinder for cafe

askthecoffeeguy · May 2011

Ok folks I'm after a doserless grinder for my cafe max budget $2k so second hand is the most likely option - ideas anyone?

Lacehim · May 2011

There is a K10 Fresh doserless for sale $2300 on CS. Just a tad over your budget. Looks like he bought it, and went back to his Kony E. Might only have had home use but you'll have to ask him. I think he's getting desperate... been there a while and it's one huge beast of a thing. He probably got it home and the wife went right off at the size!

;D :o Would be perfect in a cafe though I'm sure.

FreshCoffee2 · May 2011

Hey Pat, have you looked at it this way............ If you buy a newie at around $2500 (assumed new machine price) you can turn over and return the purchase price this way: Divide by say $3.80 per cup = around 660 coffees sold, and in say 35 kilo a week 7 day business, you can turn that over in under 1.5 days. And if you buy it new (or atleast not from a private individual who is not GST registered) you get a credit on the GST paid so it only actually costs you $2273 and includes a new machine guarantee....... Which is only just a tad above your stated budget with guarantee...............and therefore why would you waste your time on a second hand grinder for an equivalent $$$$ spend. Just a thought. Rgdz, Attilio very first Crema site sponsor.

Koffee_Kosmo · May 2011

You think like me Attilio I was also in finance some time ago and this is the same advice I offered to my clients From a tax point of view if one uses a rent buy agreement it will cost a little more but it is 100% deductible KK

beanflying · May 2011

on 1305789369:

Just a thought. Rgdz, Attilio very first Crema site sponsor.

I also know a guy with a nice shiny new M7 Electronic to test

Have you had a chance to bench test it yet?

askthecoffeeguy · May 2011

Hi guys thanks for that - I'm open to all possibilities but am also mindful of budget constraints - my realistic budget for same is $2k so if I can find a near new or a machine in excellent working order in this price range I would consider same - as I'm looking at selling an existing Compak WBC k10 to largely fund the purchase - as such is want a rapid turnaround time so as not to be a grinde down during busy service times - otherwise i would need to look at paying something off over time, and delay receiving same prob by a six to eight weeks Not real keen on rent try buy as the interest tends to be quite prohibitive, so for now I will keep looking! P

FreshCoffee2 · May 2011

Thankyou KK that is a compliment

Hey BF, said M7D is in our own coffeehouse at the moment being tested. Our barista chickie babe Maria likes it....a lot, and got a scared look on her face when I told her on Wednesday that once we've run a few more kilos through I will probably have to remove it to one of our clients that does 50 kg a week where it will be a great management tool over the regular doser grinder arrangement........ We've seen enough in a week to know it is a fantastic management tool for people in busy cafes. We are still waiting to run more kilos through to see what happens once the burrs have been bedded in a lot more, from a back coffee quality perspective. Realistically despite all the hoo ha that some people go on with in special interest coffee forums ;D I dont believe any difference in the black coffee character will come through the milk enough to be noticed by anyone drinking their fave lartays and capps in a shopping mall or perhaps anywhere else. That is in the ever tiresome conical VS planar burr debate, and in the market the grinders are actually designed for (high vol cafe use) they are designed as a management tool ie to make the operators job easier and quicker, not for some perceived difference in the quality of the coffee between conical Vs flat plate grinders. The burrs as far as I can see are pretty much the same as on the K10 and posisbly the kony (?)so grind quality is not an issue anyway, what is the issue is the usability & efficiency etc of the grinder in use in toto and on that score I am very happy with it. On the basis of that I tried to order quite a few more to put in my current order that is getting close to leaving Italy, but there is a three week waiting time to manufacture from order and my machines are only 1 week off consignment. So I will have to wait another few months to my next consignment to get some more.....! Pat - It is possible I would have trusted you on the balance of payment over a 2 g up front "deposit" and delivered a new grinder to you straight up....but as stated above it isnt going to happen at the moment. Rgdz, Attilio very first Crema site sponsor

Lacehim · May 2011

on 1305809767:

Not real keen on rent try buy as the interest tends to be quite prohibitive, so for now I will keep looking!

Have a chat with your accountant, pros and cons vs buying new or second hand or a finance package. When we had our business if it was under 2k we would just buy it outright, but over that it was better to finance, and probably worth the hassle financially, but there is additional paperwork. Even buying second hand it should go on a depreciation schedule.

askthecoffeeguy · May 2011

on 1305852260:

on 1305809767:

Not real keen on rent try buy as the interest tends to be quite prohibitive, so for now I will keep looking!

Have a chat with your accountant, pros and cons vs buying new or second hand or a finance package. When we had our business if it was under 2k we would just buy it outright, but over that it was better to finance, and probably worth the hassle financially, but there is additional paperwork. Even buying second hand it should go on a depreciation schedule.

agreed - my last cafe (admittedly I owned it for eight years) and much higher takings, enabling purchases of this nature without difficulty, whereas my current one is still relatively in its infancy (trading for 18 months) - and because we use organic / biodynamic / free range ingredients and products for just about everything, our overheads are much higher and our margins much slimmer than what I'm used to, which means that I need to think carefully about any purchase that I make. Also I'm just not into finance of any sort really, as it is inevitably geared towards the financial institution and not the individual Having had a busy (for us anyway) service today where we made 200 coffees with just me behind the machine, and one staff member on the floor (for most of the day - we do have a crossover at lunch) - I'm starting to rethink the whole doserless argument - as you can only make one coffee at a time with a doserless, then there's the lag time that it takes to load your dose, combined with the downtime between shots, which makes me question the need for a doserless grinder Initial demand was driven by the amount of excess grind that ends up on the floor from continuous updosing, but refinements to my technique have helped to reduce this problem (can vouch for other staff however) - its an enigma wrapped within a conundrum! P

FreshCoffee2 · May 2011

on 1305892376:

.... you can only make one coffee at a time with a doserless, then there's the lag time that it takes to load your dose, combined with the downtime between shots, which makes me question the need for a doserless grinder P

Say what? Not understanding your line of discussion Pat. Large cafe electronic doserless grinders (like our M7D) will dose out a double (or 2 half drops with a settle in between) very quickly due to high volume delivery of said conical system. Plus it stops precicely and has less waste. This is what our barista like so much about it...... Rgdz, Attilio

beanflying · May 2011

on 1305892376:

Having had a busy (for us anyway) service today where we made 200 coffees with just me behind the machine, and one staff member on the floor (for most of the day - we do have a crossover at lunch) - I'm starting to rethink the whole doserless argument - as you can only make one coffee at a time with a doserless, then there's the lag time that it takes to load your dose, combined with the downtime between shots, which makes me question the need for a doserless grinder Initial demand was driven by the amount of excess grind that ends up on the floor from continuous updosing, but refinements to my technique have helped to reduce this problem (can vouch for other staff however) - its an enigma wrapped within a conundrum! P

Hi Pat, based on dosing triples with my K10 I run between 4.8 and 5 seconds and subject to being confirmed by Attillio the K10 and the M7 share the same or very similar burrs. If it is just a wastage thing you are more concerned about then consider a timer box like I am running on my K10. I have ran it at 8kg/day a while ago and while it does cause a small delay the idiot proof nature of dosage control once set and busy and lack of wastage would have saved me time and money on waste beans. If you are interested in borrowing the timer for a play for a week I can spare it at the minute as I am not doing coffees for $$, drop me a PM and I can pop it in the post. Easy to drive and the grinder simply plugs into the back of it. Either that or if you know David Seng drop him a line and see if he has a spare.

beanflying · May 2011

Ooops sorry about the last jumbo pic. Was working on a mates PC in Melbourne and couldn't resize it. I had a chance for a quick play with an M7D at Cafebiz. Great looking grinder and seemed simple enough to drive. I did flick it from Auto to Manual to use mainly as the Breville we were playing with needed to be updosed a lot to get a decent shot out of it. Would be well worth considering in the large doserless mix. Compared to my K10 the opening in the hopper into the top of the burrs is huge so don't let your kiddies it all sorts of things would fit in

blanyon · May 2011

on 1305977214:

Hi Pat, based on dosing triples with my K10 I run between 4.8 and 5 seconds and subject to being confirmed by Attillio the K10 and the M7 share the same or very similar burrs. If it is just a wastage thing you are more concerned about then consider a timer box like I am running on my K10. I have ran it at 8kg/day a while ago and while it does cause a small delay the idiot proof nature of dosage control once set and busy and lack of wastage would have saved me time and money on waste beans. If you are interested in borrowing the timer for a play for a week I can spare it at the minute as I am not doing coffees for $$, drop me a PM and I can pop it in the post. Easy to drive and the grinder simply plugs into the back of it. Either that or if you know David Seng drop him a line and see if he has a spare.

Great little box would love one for my van, any chance of getting another one made up? Cheers Brett

beanflying · May 2011

I am going to make another at some stage with a few tweaks and a more modern timer. I will run a new thread at the time with parts listings so you should be able to get a local sparky to build you one based on the pics. Parts costs around $150-200 I suspect.

blanyon · May 2011

Sounds good I will look forward too it!!

askthecoffeeguy · May 2011

Thanks for the offer of the timer, guys - at this stage I'm going to hold off as my bench space is so tight (k10, robur, Ditting, and a mini), that I would be hard pressed to accommodate any new equipment I haven't reached any firm conclusions about the doserless yet - I guess Id need to bench test one to be in the running Cheers, Pat

beanflying · May 2011

With the box taking up space as it is a plug in and plug out device it can go fairly much anywhere you like. Mine will actually finish up under the bench flush mounted with the front to save it getting in the way on top. i have also used it sitting on the upper tray of the espresso machine to keep it out of the way at home. The M7 that was at Cafebiz over the weekend I suspect is belongs to Chris at TC if you want to chase up a local look. It would be great to arrange an independent head to head review of one along with the K10 fresh.

askthecoffeeguy · May 2011

I dunno guys, I'm too sleep deprived to make informed decisions, so I guess I'll just keep exploring my options until I get further clarity - thank god for coffee, at least I'm awake!

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