Syrups, Powders and Potions in Coffee shops or Cafes

beanflying · May 2011

Interested in what industry people in particular think about this topic as most of the coffee nuts amongst us certainly wouldn't drink them (at least I hope you don't)

I have been helping sort out a little issue with a major franchised coffee outlet nearby and I spent over an hour yesterday just sitting back behind the counter watching. Fairly staggering the percentage of doctored coffees be they white chocolate mochas to hazelnut syrups to other various concoctions. My guesstimate would be approaching 30% of drinks were not the more standard unadulterated espresso based milk drinks.

So to this end is the specialty coffee market doing themselves a financial disservice by not having them or if they have them not promoting them more? Should the people promoting these drinks be burnt at the stake?

RichardM · May 2011

My personal opinion is there is a demand, thus the cafe's must supply it. Sure, I hate syrups, but I'm more than happy to make a mocha from a good quality cocoa. I think if places have syrups, they need to focus more on the way that places like Gloria Jeans/Zarrafas/San Churros do it - make a few "signature drinks" - a "Caramel Latte" sounds better than "Latte.......Flavour 50c extra", and this way you don't end up with an infinite number of concoctions to confuse the customers. Some of the get out of hand (like that Chilli Lime one I saw the other day) and just never should be mixed with coffee.

Koffee_Kosmo · May 2011

I agree with Richard If someone wants to buy it then you must cater for it They need to have a separate menu Traditional & Signature Style I favour a special drink as a signature beverage as opposed to a squirt of something in a traditional drink KK

Lacehim · May 2011

I personally think speciality coffee should avoid these things. Lets face it they are there for the coffee, not hiding all that flavour in a sugary syrup. I used to take sugar in my coffee, but when I started drinking good, well made coffee I found I no longer need it in milk based drinks. The milk is sweet enough if done right. Maybe these syrup folk need educating?

Who knows. Point them to the nearest GJ or SB. I've never had a decent coffee from either of them. I avoid those places like the plague but lets face it they aren't going out of business, and people are still queuing up for a weak skinny latte with extra froth and a tons of vanilla syrup in it (defeats the point of using skinny milk eh). I really boils down to... If you want that business or need the customers, you have to cater for them. Take there money and run!

RichardM · May 2011

on 1305201119:

tons of vanilla syrup in it (defeats the point of using skinny milk eh).

No. They have their coffee and lollies fat free. They have their lollies with no artificial colours and flavours. They have their coke sugar free. They have their chips done in cholesterol free oil. They pick the Heart Foundation Approved McDonalds meals. I'm sure in their mind they are the healthiest people ever! In the end, it all comes down to marketing.

askthecoffeeguy · May 2011

depends upon the environment and that market potential - i introduced syrups and flavoured mocha's etc whaeen I had a cafe at Melbourne Uni and my sales nearly doubled whilst still serving great coffee - so I reckon its horses for courses and recognising who youre target clientele are and whether they're being properly serviced or not... p

Dry_bean. · May 2011

on 1305201119:

I personally think speciality coffee should avoid these things. Lets face it they are there for the coffee, not hiding all that flavour in a sugary syrup. I used to take sugar in my coffee, but when I started drinking good, well made coffee I found I no longer need it in milk based drinks. The milk is sweet enough if done right. Maybe these syrup folk need educating? Who knows. Point them to the nearest GJ or SB. I've never had a decent coffee from either of them. I avoid those places like the plague but lets face it they aren't going out of business, and people are still queuing up for a weak skinny latte with extra froth and a tons of vanilla syrup in it (defeats the point of using skinny milk eh). I really boils down to... If you want that business or need the customers, you have to cater for them. Take there money and run!

This good coffee does not need sugar thing seems to raise it's head on a regular basis, what is not taken into account is individual taste, we're all different, so for the crusaders among us to tell someone who uses sugar/syrup that they are wrong or uneducated is , well, wrong. Who are we too dictate to others what they should or should not put in their coffee, the fact that there is a big demand for flavourings and sugar should be all the information we need. So to say "The milk is sweet enough if done right. " is akin to saying there is something wrong with your palate, we need to simply accept the fact that some of us enjoy sugar/syrup in coffee and are not about to change regardless of what others tell us. Now having said all that let me tell you that I use sugar and heaven forbid on occasion even syrup, if it offends some of the pedants among us all I can say is broaden your outlook and recognise the fact that we are all different and as such have different tastes. FWIW just enjoyed a long black with a teaspoon of maple syrup (KK's recent suggestion) enjoyed being the operative word.

beanflying · May 2011

Demographics of the syrup set was interesting too 14-20+ year old females mainly. In part this is locality center of town in a shopping precinct. Go around the corner of the same town to a place run by the best Baristas with Grinders (shudder) and the Syrup rate while they have them is much much lower by comparison. In part because they are out of site and the menu doesn't scream sugary treats with pictures. Different set of people 20-40+ semi Hipster (such as we have them in the bush. btw The idea of a signature drink or a drink of the week doesn't totally repel me

RichardM · May 2011

on 1305280923:

Light Meals got - and it had to be HINEZ Tomato Sauce.... On Icecream or Bread and butter pudding as well ::) ::) :-[ :-X :o Heavy meals got - BBQ Sauce ;D :o OH and coffee was two heaped instant and 4 sugar but Tea was black no sugar AND a non Smoker :o PS. He was in his late 40's and was very set in his ways. I understand he lost both his legs as a result of not managing his Diabetic condition and a few other heal issues; not the done thing in the tropics. And passed on a few years ago.

In regards to the coffee, I drink instant about the same as that. If I need a caffeine hit, I have been known to have a milky supersaturated solution of sugar/Nescafe. I don't let it get to this anymore - I pack a one cup plunger and my grinder these days. I don't get people with sauce on everything. My missus used to do that. Thankfully my cooking has turned her off having sauce on everything these days. How can someone love one thing so much that they think everything should taste like it????

hazchem · May 2011

on 1305167931:

I agree with Richard If someone wants to buy it then you must cater for it

I have to disagree. I don't believe that if there is demand for a relevant product a cafe must cater for it. It's a business decision for each individual operator really. That said, the cafe I'm running does have a small selection of syrups. Sales aren't high, we have customers I could count on one hand that come in every day and have a belt of some flavour or other in their coffee. Would I drink it? No way. Will I gladly make them the best damn hazelnut mocha they've ever had, every day? Damn straight. Given the chance, I'd never serve soy, skim/'lite', syrups, chocolate on caps, or highly refined sugar. But that'd be a very different business to the one I am currently running.

RichardM · May 2011

on 1305573864:

on 1305167931:

I agree with Richard If someone wants to buy it then you must cater for it

I have to disagree. I don't believe that if there is demand for a relevant product a cafe must cater for it. It's a business decision for each individual operator really.

Doesn't that mean you agree???? I said if someone wants to buy it then you must cater for it. You said you only should cater for it if there is demand. Demand would be if someone wants to buy it. Not all cafes should have it, for sure. If there is no/little demand, for sure, definitely don't bother. Of course with this kind of thing the line has to be drawn - for example a "hole in the wall" operation with little space might have space constraints for example and not be able to stock them, no matter the demand.

beanflying · May 2011

Much as I started this topic after seeing it done to extreme my current bottom line on my coffee menu is this . ;D If you want Syrups, Flavors or 16 oz Buckets of coffee flavoured milk you are in the wrong spot. It does come down to what does the business owner or manager wants to offer. It is a bit like going to a seafood restaurant and asking for pork. While it may be on the menu or even as a special you wouldn't go there expecting it in most cases. $tarbucks and GJ's have brainwashed a percentage of 'coffee drinkers' into believing it is now normal to expect these options while in this country until recent times it wasn't.

FreshCoffee2 · May 2011

on 1305162925:

Interested in what industry people in particular think .................So to this end is the specialty coffee market doing themselves a financial disservice by not having them or if they have them not promoting them more? Should the people promoting these drinks be burnt at the stake?

Hehehehehe. Mad if you dont mate mad if you dont (offer a small quality selection of stuff that your clients ask for, want, and are willing to pay you for). Same as with decaff, and same as when someone wants to pay you money for a HOT capp with boiled milk in. If they want it....and you dont give it to them, you lose.

This is not a game to see who can be the most arrogant with their clients and who think they can afford to refuse service for money, it is serious business and every cafe owner's livelihood. Rgdz, Attilio. Very First Crema Site Sponsor

Dry_bean. · May 2011

on 1305790527:

on 1305162925:

Interested in what industry people in particular think .................So to this end is the specialty coffee market doing themselves a financial disservice by not having them or if they have them not promoting them more? Should the people promoting these drinks be burnt at the stake?

Hehehehehe. Mad if you dont mate mad if you dont (offer a small quality selection of stuff that your clients ask for, want, and are willing to pay you for). Same as with decaff, and same as when someone wants to pay you money for a HOT capp with boiled milk in. If they want it....and you dont give it to them, you lose. This is not a game to see who can be the most arrogant with their clients and who think they can afford to refuse service for money, it is serious business and every cafe owner's livelihood. Rgdz, Attilio. Very First Crema Site Sponsor

Well said Attilio, if a customer wants mashed banana in his coffee and is willing to pay for it my only question would be how much would you like. ;D

FreshCoffee2 · May 2011

say.....mashed banana...! Might give that a go in back of house and see what its like ;D Chiz, A.

FreshCoffee2 · May 2011

Just to make sure I thought it should be mentioned............ BF, in my post above I made reference to "arrogance" and I would like to say publicly and just in case there could be any misunderstanding from anyone reading this, that the comment was in no way directed at you. It was merely a general reference re attitudes in some coffee "geek" circles. Now lets see if i cant put my foot in it somewhere else ;D Rgdz, Attilio

beanflying · May 2011

No problem Attilio, I took it as I think you meant it as a general comment on the industry. My position on Syrups has softened a little over the last few years if anything but I would also hate to see the industry adopt the GJ's/$tarbucks version of it being 'normal' at the expense of the coffee.

Koffee_Kosmo · May 2011

on 1305880783:

No problem Attilio, I took it as I think you meant it as a general comment on the industry. My position on Syrups has softened a little over the last few years if anything but [glow=red,2,300]I would also hate to see the industry adopt the GJ's/$tarbucks version of it being 'normal' at the expense of the coffee.[/glow]

I wholeheartedly agree with this KK

hiphipharar · May 2011

In a related vein: TO ADD sugar or not to add sugar, that is the question. A Lilyfield barista has left the inner-west latte set reeling by refusing to add sugar while he's making coffee. Yves Shepherd, owner of Catherine & Piper, erected a sign a few weeks ago announcing the unthinkable: ''DIY sugar''. Advertisement: Story continues below ''We found that in the colder months it's creating a bottleneck in terms of the speed at which we could offer a really great coffee,'' Mr Shepherd said. ''If you get a large cappuccino with two sugars, you're only getting chocolate and sugar. The coffee is adjunct to that.'' Shepherd says some customers have repeated the directive back to him in disbelief. Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/restaurants-and-bars/pour-diddums-8230-youll-get-your-coffee-how-we-like-it-20110520-1ewov.html#ixzz1MwgTL2B2

FreshCoffee2 · May 2011

Personally I dont see what the problem is.... My own situation is that we run a "coffee house" within the confines of our "coffee roasterie". We are not a "cafe" as in an eatery with a coffee machine. We are coffee specialists, and all our coffees including those with the dreaded flavouring in them, go out made properly with the utmost care using the best equipment by our top "barista". W dont need to put up signs like "we are serious about our coffee" or "respect for the bean" etc because in our place where we are a long established and profesisonal coffee roasterie, that would be a bit of a "cliche" and could put the clients off....kind of like having up those signs that say "we dont serve HOT milk or milk above a certain temperature, and dishing out luke warm mlik coffees etc....that just puts people off because they make you (us) look like some kind of "snob" in the derogatory sense of the word, and that means they dont come back and spend more dollars.... I understand not everyone can be a "coffee house" like we are but..... As a business that is mindful of absolute quality AND....our bottom line, we do serve decaff (admittedly it is also certifiefied organic as well as fair trade movement so "ethically up there"); We do offer a small selection of flavours for those that want them; We do offer sugar; We do offer mugs; We do offer black, green, white and flavoured tea, "chai", and sundry infusions including peppermint etc. These are all LEAF not bags. We do a good trade in "takeaway" and only offer the normal size (8 oz) and the next size up (12 oz) despite that our multi boiler PID controlled espresso machine also has the raised groups to accommodate for taller vessels. So, everythign in moderation, tastefully done, and if this doesnt fit someone's idea of what a "coffee house" should be, se la vie there (apparently) is room for all. If you pull the clients middle leg, as in act like a smartarse, they wont come back, and these businesses are usually the business owners major source of income. Refuse service at your peril. GJ's and others could only ever hope to purvey the quality that we do in the cup, even when it has flavouring in

Regardz, Attilio. very first Crema site sponsor ! :D

FreshCoffee2 · May 2011

A VERY good question M. a) The sweet stuff is the entry level to coffee or more correctly, espresso...if you didnt allow them to put the sweet stuff in they would still be drinking coke. So from that point of view is it better to have them drink a double shot hazelnut skinny larrrrtehhhhhh, or no coffee at all hehehe! Dont answer that.... ;D b) No amount of sugar will fix a bitter bre, it just takes on a sour bitter/sweet character. c) You are full of cliches today

! "...into coffee..." If we had a dollar for every time we've heard that old chestnut, and yes it is most often annunciated by people that that have no idea, but then....what would I know ;D Rgdz to all, A.

RichardM · May 2011

My mum came over today - hadn't been here for nearly two weeks, and needed her coffee hit. She was telling me about how she has coffee at the local golf club, and asks for it half strength because they make it "too strong". She then drinks a double shot latte in a 160mL cup with no sugar. My conclusion: she doesn't know the difference between "strong" and "shithouse". If people want to add some kind of sickly sweet syrup to that kind of coffee, I guess that's fine. My opinion from earlier in the thread still stands though, of making some signature drinks, but still focusing on the coffee rather than turning your roaster/cafe into a syrup bar with coffee.

hazchem · May 2011

on 1305602841:

I have to disagree. I don't believe that if there is demand for a relevant product a cafe must cater for it. It's a business decision for each individual operator really. Doesn't that mean you agree???? I said if someone wants to buy it then you must cater for it. You said you only should cater for it if there is demand. Demand would be if someone wants to buy it. Not all cafes should have it, for sure. If there is no/little demand, for sure, definitely don't bother. Of course with this kind of thing the line has to be drawn - for example a "hole in the wall" operation with little space might have space constraints for example and not be able to stock them, no matter the demand.

perhaps I didn't explain myself clearly enough ... What I'm saying is that just because there is demand, it does not mean that a cafe must meet said demand. It's up to them, their own decision. If demand exists, the operator chooses whether or not to fulfil it. They don't have to, it isn't a MUST. I had a customer request lactose free milk today. I explained we have whole, skim & soy, but he still wanted a lactose free milk. So, I now know that demand for a lactose free milk exists, as I also know there is demand for rice & almond milks. However, I choose not to fulfil that demand. Just because the demand is there, it doesn't mean I must fill it.

RichardM · May 2011

on 1306048800:

perhaps I didn't explain myself clearly enough ... What I'm saying is that just because there is demand, it does not mean that a cafe must meet said demand. It's up to them, their own decision. If demand exists, the operator chooses whether or not to fulfil it. They don't have to, it isn't a MUST. I had a customer request lactose free milk today. I explained we have whole, skim & soy, but he still wanted a lactose free milk. So, I now know that demand for a lactose free milk exists, as I also know there is demand for rice & almond milks. However, I choose not to fulfil that demand. Just because the demand is there, it doesn't mean I must fill it.

I guess what I was referring to "demand" was more "adequate demand". For example, I'd not expect most cafes to have lactose free milk (which is what I drink - Pauls Zymil is better for texturing, but Lidells is better flavour in my opinion. I use Pauls Zymil at home), but I would generally expect them to have soy, because the demand seems higher. The main thing is as long as an operator has considered it one way or another, yes, it's their choice. If you were oblivious and said "we don't have sugar, we don't have soy, we don't have low fat because I don't like my coffee that way" and were turning away every second customer, that was more the "demand" I was referring to.

mycuppa · May 2011

on 1305964240:

My mum came over today - hadn't been here for nearly two weeks, and needed her coffee hit. She was telling me about how she has coffee at the local golf club, and asks for it half strength because they make it "too strong". She then drinks a double shot latte in a 160mL cup with no sugar. My conclusion: she doesn't know the difference between "strong" and "shithouse". If people want to add some kind of sickly sweet syrup to that kind of coffee, I guess that's fine. My opinion from earlier in the thread still stands though, of making some signature drinks, but still focusing on the coffee rather than turning your roaster/cafe into a syrup bar with coffee.

A few months ago, a medium/large sized cafe in SE Melbourne suburbs asked me to come and see them RE: potential of changing coffee. They were using an Imported Italian coffee and over the last 18 months had received quite a few new younger generation customers - new families moving in the area, etc. For the early morning coffees, their regular customers were sometimes making the odd comment about bitterness and this was now starting to play on the mind of the owner - was the coffee at fault ? had their customer's tastes changed, were they falling behind, is there a problem with their morning barista, etc ?. I turned up mid-morning to watch customers - sure enough 9 out 10 customers were putting 1 or more sugar sticks in the coffee - standard stuff like latte's and capp's. Without keeping a scorecard, up to half of the people were putting 2+ sugar sticks in their coffees with some stretching my imagination with 3 or more. For the trial - we placed our grinder and beans next to their existing house blend and the affable barista asked customers to try the different (new) beans. I was gobsmacked to see the customers continue their habit of adding 1+ sugar sticks to their coffees. Sure, it was human behavior and how would they know what to expect with the new coffee. At the end of 2 days trial - the results were mixed - some customers were accustomed to the "bite" from the existing beans mixed with the sugar sticks. Some were rapturous in their joy of not having to add sugar and therefore view the consequential health benefits - perceived or otherwise. The die-hard regulars wanted the bitterness as they considered the ritual of adding up to 3 sugar sticks as a traditional and ceremonial exercise associated with drinking coffee. I have a new level of respect for Jamie Oliver and his food revolution.

FreshCoffee2 · May 2011

Not to labour the point here but for the benefit of the non industry people reading this.... Most people will add the sugar regardless ie before even cupping the brew. One would need to advise every single client, emphatically, NOT to add sugar until they've tried the new coffee to decide whether they should add the sugar. The problem then becomes, that they are so used to adding sugar to the other coffee and therefore the flavour characteristic embedded in their memory for the brew in toto....which for an italian imprted blend is nothing like our style of coffees here. If the new coffee being trialed is a typically Australian style high grown arabica espresso blend, and if the Italian style espresso blend yours is being compared to is your typical high % robusta italian blend, it is a completely different style of coffee that doesnt actually taste good without the compulsory addition of 6 grams of sugar....and that is if it has been brewed properly. Thise italian blends have to be had with sugar....thier style is totally different to ours and the sugar actually "makes" the coffee so it can be said it is an integral part of the espresso where in Ausie style espresso....it is not. The clients who are used to drinking the italian blend, will not be able to handle the smoother and less "dramatic" character iof the Ausie blend not just for the lack of that very heavy mouthfeel and the caharcter imparted by the sugar, but also because afterwards the ausie blend lacks the punch of the italin blend because there is far less caffeine and oil in our style of coffee. It is a question of the style of coffee the client is accustomed to and to change that, they need to want to undergo the change and be willing to drink the new style for a period of time until they become accustomed to it....kind of like changing your favourite scotch over for another...it takes time. The "die hard regulars" I believe, have taken into consideration the completely differing styles in the two type of coffee and choose to stay with their encumbent after noting that the new blend with or without sugar is simply not the same. Hope that helps all, there is more to this particular discussion at tnis point than the addition of sweeteners because of the inherent differences in the blends being compared....and of course when we talk about sweeteners in this market we are usually assuming that we are comparing similar styles of coffee rather than Italian supermarket blends to high grown Ausie blends. All that said my own experience is that you cannot ask just any of your regular clients to try something different and comment....if you want a straight answer you have to be selective with the clients you ask....in terms of picking those you think are capable of actually adjudicating properly what you are asking them to compare and comment on. Rgdz, Attilio very first Crema site sponsor.

Dry_bean. · May 2011

Hate to press the point guys, what I'm seeing in this thread (as a consumer) are long winded posts from people involved in the industry explaining how and why customers should take their coffee sans sugar or any other perceived adulterant. Now, as I've explained many times before, I enjoy sugar in my coffee, 3 grams (level coffee spoon) in SB and 5 grams in a LB and have done since I first started drinking the stuff about 55 years ago, during this period the amount of sugar I add has not changed and quite honestly I feel absolutely no compulsion to change simply to satisfy the whims or perceptions of the industry. Reminds me of a good friend who ran a restaurant in a remote area with pretty much a captive clientele, as far as he was concerned the only way to cook a steak was rare (or in his terms blue) wobetide the customer who had the temerity to complain, the reaction was to dump the offending steak into the deep fryer for 5 mins, that worked fine when he was serving 250 meals a night with no competition, nowadays there is competition, his son runs the show and you can order your steak any way you prefer, my point being of course ignore customer preferences at your peril, they will and do vote with their feet.

hazchem · May 2011

I don't think ANY one here is ignoring our customer's preferences. Given the chance, I'd always take the opportunity to talk to a customer about whether or not to have those added sugars. But if they find they prefer coffee with sugar, then they prefer coffee with sugar and that will be that. Like suggesting a certain meal for lunch that I think they might enjoy, I'd like to suggest other ways they _might_ enjoy their coffee. Just because I don't add sugar doesn't mean I expect the same of all my customers.

WotB · June 2011

I have to say I would rather let the customer do it themselves, that way, it's one less thing for them to possibly complain about. It has nothing to do with time or workflow. Simply let them customise their purchase. You're there to only advise them that it may be nicer without any additions. No need to force your will upon the ones paying the bills.

Dry_bean. · June 2011

on 1306882039:

I have to say I would rather let the customer do it themselves, that way, it's one less thing for them to possibly complain about. It has nothing to do with time or workflow. Simply let them customise their purchase. You're there to only advise them that it may be nicer without any additions. No need to force your will upon the ones paying the bills.

I agree, better to let the customer add their own sugar, they will get exactly what they require. So if your not adding the sugar at what stage do you offer this sage advice, do you wait till they are seated with the hand hovering over the sugar container and then rush over and impart your words of wisdom, or do you have some other strategy? My feeling is the barista is there to make coffee to the best of their ability, not as an advisor, leave the advice giving to your local GP. Anyone who pesters me with unsolicited advice re the way I take my coffee has a pretty fair chance of losing me as a customer, fortunately it's never happened in over 50 years of partaking in our delightful beverage. ;D

WotB · June 2011

Advice is given in the case of the curious customer, not as standard practice. There should be at least some sort of interaction between the customer and barista. Otherwise there is no element of service, only a procurement of goods. A human-operated vending machine, if you will. I have seen an example of a business model where each customer gets routed to a "station" where their coffee order is prepared by an individual barista, usually on a single-group machine. This gives a bit of face-to-face with the person preparing your beverage. A touch of personalised service.

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