Coffee standards - are they improving

admin · June 2006

[quote author=askthecoffeeguy

FreshCoffee2 · June 2006

Speaking from a viewpoint within my own industry, I really do believe standards are improving, but this comes together with the problem of people picking up a little knowledge, then becoming instant experts. Mix this with the extremely emotional feelings that the topic of "coffee" seems to elicit in people, and it seems to result in some very difficult customers. This can make the *business* of coffee very difficult. Regardz, FC.

admin · June 2006

Hi guys - am re-raising this as I believe it relates to Hot & Strong's (are we shooting ourselves in the foot?) post under the have your say thread. -A

One-a-day · June 2006

If the report on JJJ radio yesterday afternoon is any thing to go by standards should be getting better . I didn't catch the guys name but he was from ASCA and he was talking about old school barista's pushing the need for a recognised qualification system to acknowledge their training and skills as quality coffee makers. He mentioned all the qualified competition judges throught out the land could help with some kind of licensing system. Why not make barista'ing a trade where you have to gain the nessacary skills and be able to manufacture quality product consistantly?

nzroaster · June 2006

The AASCAis actually looking at some sort of standardised qualification and the impact on the industry, I think there are people more involved in this project that could further elaborate. John, Ben?

Hot_and_Strong · June 2006

In my opinion, the level of appreciation of what constitutes quality espresso is growing. Consumers are in general becoming somewhat more discerning with where they purchase their coffee. As mentioned previously on this thread, this increased appreciation unfortunately has a direct correlation to an increase in the "instant expert" or what i call the "wanker" factor. I believe that for any long-lasting, noticeable improvements to occur, some sort of qualification is necessary. One of the major factors underpinning the continued widespread production of poor quality coffee is the fact that the average age of cafe employees is under 20. Although this is not the problem itself, too many proprietors hire young staff, spend 3 minutes teaching them how to make coffee and they immediately start serving the public. These poorly trained staff then train any new members of staff and so on....

Mr_Nang · June 2006

I think the fact that there is a shift from instant coffee to espresso with the rising popularity of domestic coffee machines will continue to raise the ecpectations of consumers. I am interested to see the rise in participation in forums such as this and coffee geek which shows more people will becoming educated - this also increases the expectations of consumers who will direct their spend toward cafes with more skilled baristas. The standards are increasing.... slowly..

mattyj · June 2006

slowly but surely...

BenB · June 2006

As many of you have already said, the quality of coffee around Australia and the publics appreciation for it are constantly increasing. It's a slow, sometimes uphill battle, but it's certainly getting better (usually as individual cafes create a consistently great product and get recognised for it). The publics palate in Australia is actually quite highly developed - we enjoy high quality fresh produce from our land and oceans and have a fairly inventive food and beverage industry. Coffee is just the next thing that people are turning their attention to. I mean, look at Sydney: it has the largest number of home espresso machines per capita in the world! Sure, some of that is the 'cafe lifestyle at home' craze but a lot of it is driven by the public's passion to enjoy great coffee at home and experiment with their personal preferences. Check out the other thread on this forum that deals specifically with the barista accreditation program that is being developed. There's some great things coming up and a real push from the industry to encourage quality and growth so it's exciting times - things can only get better! Cheers, Ben

askthecoffeeguy · July 2006

With the advent of internet forums and the like, and the relative wealth of knowledge at our fingertips, as well as increasing competition and consumer driven demand - I think it is fair to say that coffee standards, in the larger cities, at least, are on the rise. Also, new technology in the form of super responsive grinders, and precision espresso machines go a long way towards producing an amazing coffee, assuming that is that you are using quality ingredients to start off with, and that the person behind the machine knows what they are doing. ACG

Gonzo · July 2006

yeah but the current rise in interest through internet foreums etc is also spawning a lot of mis-information as well, and the biggest area of interest for me ( ie the generation of misinformation) is in the area of equipment. Too much emphasis

askthecoffeeguy · August 2006

I think at the end of the day Jo Public is becoming more discerning. Even in little 'off the map' country towns, locals will tell you; "Go to so-and-so's for coffee, they make a good cup there." Most of my customers, I would think, come back because they know that the coffee is good, and more importantly, it's consistently good. They don't necessarily need to know what coffee I'm using, what my grind settings are like, or my extraction times. To me, at least, it comes down to cafe owners working closely with the roasters, to ensure that standards are maintained, to fine-tune product where possible, and to oversee the quality control in their establishment. As I've said before, I throw away more of my coffees than any other member of my staff, not because their coffee is necessarily better, but because I am particularly stringent about quality control. And I would like to think that, if the occasional one slips through underneath the radar, I know most of my customers well enough that they would tell me so. Word of mouth is easily the best publicity for any business, and setting your standards a notch or two above the other guy, and then maintaining them, ensures repeat trade and longevity, in an admittedly fickle industry. ACG

admin · June 2007

am thinking this one a sticky, as it's a an important long term thread; in the meantime, am re-surrecting for comment. -A

psaigh · June 2007

Although earlier it was stated that we as australia's have a more discerning pallate, in terms of coffee i'm not sure how far this carries. Indeed i agree that there is a whole new genereation of coffee drinkers that know what quality is (fresh roasted, prep'd on quality machinery by well train barista's, served at 65C straight to the table or bar) but their still exists a massive generation (infact, they still are the overwhelming majority) of coffee drinkers that have grown up drinking coffee from the 80's. Burnt, bitter espresso, scalding 75-85 degrees (in some cases even more!) milk, foamed at the last minute to create mountains of sea-foam. And this to them IS a great cup of coffee. On one note, who are we to tell them otherwise. We are in the customer SERVICE industry. Here to SERVE our customers in the manner in which THEY prefer. We would all like to educate our customers and their pallates so that one day we can obbliterate this oldstyle of coffee. But for now at least, there are still literally millions who prefer that style of coffee to say the type scotty handed the judges at the most recent barista comp. And who are we to tell them they are wrong. I think the quality is increasing and will so in leaps and bounds in the near future. But for now anyway, i beleive as a barista we are constantly walking a tight rope between serving the customers what they want, and showing them something new. Something more in line with what we all beleive is better coffee.

nzroaster · June 2007

Do you think it is that the majority of people want that type of coffee, or that they have not tried better?

psaigh · June 2007

Good point and I think it's a bit of both. One of my favourite things about my job is sneeking in a little of my own coffee and serving it to some of my regulars for feedback. Usually the first time I do this it is met with a response of sheer dumbfoundedness. A look horror as they are startled that coffee can taste like more than just a generic "coffee" flavour. That is can have sustaining elements of cocoa, hazelnut, herbatiousness entwined with high notes of citrus, malt and toastyness. It's great when you know now their expectations about coffee have been raised. But then there are those who want there coffee extra hot, and now matter how perfectly you texture their milk, caramalising it to the n'th degree, maximising the sweetness they still complain that it's just no hot enough (I've textured milk to 96C and they still said it was too cold - smelt like s...). So i think it's give and take. We are getting there, and i beleive exponentially quicker. I think the younger generation accepts a change towards better quality a lot quicker, as do those that have traveled abroad. But those that have drank the same bitter, burnt cup of coffee for 30years now, are still demanding the same.

nzroaster · June 2007

I think that you are right, there are some that see (taste) it, and some that don't. We recently took mugs off our menu. We were doing 12oz mugs with double shots, so really just 2 coffees in 1 vessel. They don't taste right, its the feel and shape of the cup. Our mug customers have been saying that the cups they now get are soooo much better, and we should have done it earlier. They were just ordering mugs out of habit. I'm unsure of the age point, i think its a mentality. I have alot of 40yo+ customers who are loyal to the end. They wont even drink other brands even if I suggest they should try other boutique coffees. We also get alot of under 25 customers who have already been trapped in the starbucks bigger is better mentality. If they ask for it extra hot after we have explained it we point them next door. Regularily I will serve a ristretto piccolo of a single origin to a customer on the house. Not just regulars, normally people who look like they would enjoy it, and normally when I'm having one so they get the other side of the pour. Its great when they say something like wow thats fruity, or can I taste spices. I think people are becoming more discerning, but the rest of the population is just following the majority. Eventually cafe owners will get on board with fresh, quality coffee and then the joe public will start to notice the difference. Thats my hope anyway.

kiwibarista · June 2007

I believe more consumers are becoming aware of what is quality coffee and what is not, but then when i look into cafe's such as Gloria Jeans, Starbucks, Coffee Club and the like, and i see a huge line up at the counter, it all seems somewhat unfair. I cant get over the amount of people that support these franchise chains when 90% (abit generalised, for sake of argument) of the coffees they put out are horrible. Also, the orders we get for extra hot (90 degrees) coffees, half foam half milk, half skim half soy etc etc begs the question, are consumers better educated about specialty coffee or are the just suffering from "i want to be different from everyone else" syndrome? Coffee is an institution in Australia and New Zealand and we have some of the best barista's and coffee roasters, but has the market been saturated to the point where anything goes?

nzroaster · June 2007

Ihas the market been saturated to the point where anything goes?

Good question. Some of the larger boutique roasters have good brand awareness, I think this is what it ultimately comes down to.

askthecoffeeguy · July 2007

I believe that if you stick to your guns and just focus on continually putting out a quality product - no matter how it is ordered - then a gradual process of consumer awareness will come around I also believe that we in the coffee industry have a duty to educate the public, not by overwhelming our customers with useless information, but by being well informed ourselves, and by having information at hand, or at least by being able to respond sensibly to enquires as they arise, without making the customer feel like they're a complete idiot. I'm not adverse to giving away the occasional espresso to those who I think will enjoy it, and I also keep my espresso and short mac prices ridiculously low to encourage my customers to discover the joys of espresso! As for the franchises, they too have their place in capturing the market in the first place, then its up to specialist roasters etc to provide a superior product and service at a competitive price. Cheers, Pat

ausrs · July 2007

As for the franchises, they too have their place in capturing the market in the first place, then its up to specialist roasters etc to provide a superior product and service at a competitive price. Cheers, Pat

Its not just about capturing the market IF you provide bad service and a bad pruduct no one will come back (whether franchise or independent ) worst part of any multiple stored business is getting the quality consistent between all cafe,s same as any roaster ,they can send the same blend to 30 different cafe,s and the roasters name could be mud from the customers at 20 of them because the coffee maker (or Baritsa) does not make coffee correctly

askthecoffeeguy · July 2007

And yet it is also generally accepted that where the franchise exist coffee sales across the board tend to increase dramatically, and its often the young market (though not exclusively so) that are drawn to this type of experience - leaving the way open for retailers other than the traditional franchise-inspired business model to provide speciality roasts, and to focus upon coffee education, which are two areas which are not adequately promoted by the big guys Quality control is of course a concern for all businesses, but to my mind you are often going to get a superior product from a self-motivated and skilled owner / operator - who is 'hands-on' behind the machine, and staffing the business with dedicated barristi (as opposed to young and not nec particularly extensively trained staff with a relatively high staff turnover) Having said that and as someone who has been extensively involved in the recruitment and training side of the industry, a lot of our up and coming baristi are emerging from the franchises, where they have been given an opportunity to gain employment which might not otherwise exist, and to hone their craft P

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