double shot or strong coffee

jordan23 · July 2007

i just open a shop, but i have a question of the price of double shot and strong coffee, do i need to charge more for a double shot or strong coffee, because single shot is 30ml , if double shot is 60 ml , so u actually putting 30c more coffee there, so do we charge more? if a strong coffee do we use a single handler do it same as the single shot, but just extract more coffee from there or using double handler???

Many thanks

William

askthecoffeeguy · July 2007

Its up to you whether you charge more for a strong coffee or not It also depends on where you are based. In Melbourne there is a very strong coffee culture and many customers do not like to pay extra for a double shot Outside of Melbourne i.e. Sydney, Brisbane, and just about anywhere else, its usually common practise to charge say 50c extra for a double shot I personally believe that you should NOT charge extra for decafe / soy / double shot, etc. but factor these variables into your base asking price If you are charging $3 for a coffee in Melbourne, and $3.50 just about anywhere else, you are already making an excellent margin on you coffee regardless of whether you use a double shot or not As for a strong coffee you should always use a double shot Traditionally 7g of ground coffee produces max 30ml of espresso Whilst a double shot of 14g produces a max of 60ml of espresso coffee But many cafes, my own included, now use 'up-dosing' where we use more like 10g of ground coffee for a single, and 20gm of ground coffee for a double This use of extra coffee produces a more refined and generally much better coffee, with greater consistency, less variation, finer flavour, and a lovely rich, dark brown / chocolate flavoured crema! Also, if you charge more for strong coffee, etc, and the guy down the road charges less, and if your coffees are both pretty even when it comes to quality - guess where the customers are going to go Also, if you're asking these questions and you already own a place, well, these are things that you should already know I suggest that you enrol yourself into a quality assured coffee making course, so you can find out more about how to do these things Try by asking your coffee supplier if they will provide some free 'in-house' training Cheers and good luck! Pat

GrindOnDemand · July 2007

Please never, EVER extract 60ml from a single portafilter (even if you are using a 9gm basket) - you'll lose customers (discerning ones anyway) as quickly as if your milk's turning. As Pat said, always a double shot for a strong coffee. Also customers can be picky, so before you make such a coffee try & clarify exactly what their expecting - explain the options. I charge a .50c punishment fee for anyone who dares ask for decaf!

askthecoffeeguy · July 2007

I charge the same for decafe even though I grind to order and it costs me $12 per kg more than my regular coffee! Even so you have to take in to consideration the unique demands of your environment - and being student based (located @ melbourne uni) - I charge what I think students can afford, and I would no doubt charge more if I was located elsewhere Pat

GrindOnDemand · July 2007

Pat, (hopefully) Swiss water decaf? Picked/roasted/decaffed by hand from yodelling Swiss nymphs, for the bloody price you're paying?! That's an absurd absorption to not pass on to the consumer! Mine's Swiss water, sourced by my usual bean-man, $5 I fork-out more per kg than the 'real' bean, & I grind the dubious bean myself (finer than usual, 'cause I find the whole water diluting process tends to wash away flavour/body). I did a blind taste-test with my regular addicts about a year ago (caff/decaf), and they could not pick the decaf (taste wise). Mine's fairly full bodied, with a chocolate-like presence & 'nutty/earthy' hint through to finish. Methinks there maybe a growing market there? - I've increased mine from about 1% to now 7% after 5 years ... heart palpatations, some decaf converts tell me is the reason. (??)

sketchy · July 2007

Hi all GOD why would you charge an extra .50c for something that costs an extra .06c ($5 per kg extra 80 shots per kg), that sounds like a scam. LE

askthecoffeeguy · July 2007

to cover the cost of wastage for a product that is not used as much - and for what I like to refer to as the "Harden the F*** Up" factor! P

GrindOnDemand · July 2007

No scam happening Sketchy (LE) - considering the higher price I pay for the dubious decaf bean, then that I grind a/h, then vacu-pack it to refrigerated it to minimalise staleness because it's a 'now-&-then' audience, well I think an add-on of a mere .50c per shot is totally justified - because on marketing/pricing? My decaf consumer audience (weirdly???) is growing, appreciates the taste 'cause I source premium Swiss Water, & post prior post ... the market's growing. Sketchy, think pricing & your bottom line!

GrindOnDemand · July 2007

Pat, replied simultaneously with you, maybe with same vibe to explain costing on a minimally used product.

sketchy · July 2007

Hi I must be lucky then as i pay the same for both dacaf and normal and i can buy 250g 500g or 1 kg of decaf at a time so i only buy what i need to last no longer than 2 weeks. as it is roasted on the day of delivery it remains fresher longer and i only grind to order so less waste. I'm not saying you shouldn't make a profit but i don't see why some people should have to pay more for basically the same thing. I know i'm being picky but should we charge more for using lowfat milk as that costs me about 10% more to buy than full cream, or what about if someone wants 1/2 caf 1/2 decaf.

LE

chefrob · July 2007

What if someone orders 1/2 caf 1/2 decaf? Tell them to make up their mind and you'll take their order once they have decided what they really want! But back to the topic of charging extra for single and double shots, or if the customer wants full, no-fat or soy "milk", it's a service and choice that we supply, with no extra cost. We charge $2.50 for an Espresso and $3 for milk based coffees. I've costed our coffees, and conclude that a milk based coffee (including wastage) costs us 60 cents to make from the raw ingredients. To take into account staff wages, rent, electricity, cost of fit-out or buying the business etc... then in a reasonably busy cafe, you multiply the cost of the items being sold (coffee here) by 3.333. If you can sell these products at higher prices, then that's all profit.

sketchy · July 2007

That 1/2 caf 1/2 decaf is for 2 of my semi regulars . Both like long blacks strong flavoured but can't handle to much caffeine so asked if i could mix the 2. If they enjoy it i'll make it

LE

takeaim · July 2007

i've had a few half caff regs too, they both told me it's a US thing.

chefrob · July 2007

Hey! I tried a 1/2 caf 1/2 decaf today, and it tasted just as good as a regular full kicker caffiene. You could be onto something here! For the initial thread, when a client orders a strong coffee, I give them 40 mls instead of the usual 30 mls. When they order a weak coffee, I give them 20 mls. I use a volumetric machine and have it set for weak (20 mls), regular (30 mls) and strong (40 mls), obviously using a single handle. A double shot is a different kettle of monkeys, and I was considering charging more for this, but client loyalty and pleasing the client won out. My question is, am I doing the right thing by pouring 40 mls for a strong coffee, or should I just double shot it?

jordan23 · August 2007

so should i charge for double shot coffee? let say my bean is $25 per kg, included the waste 1 kg can make up to 80 -85 single shot coffee, 1 shot is about $0.32 if i don't charge for a double shot, which mean i almost double the cost of the coffee

askthecoffeeguy · August 2007

Hi Jordan, I see from your profile that you're located in Sydney, in which case you may well need to charge extra where you can to cover your rent My only question is where do you draw the line? If you charge $3.50 already for a 'standard' coffee, then an extra $0.50 for a double shot, and another $0.50 for soy milk, that makes it $4.50 for a regular coffee, which is to my mind at least a hell of a lot to pay - but then again I'm not paying Sydney rent either... It also depends on how far you're willing to back yourself for making a brilliant coffee every time at that price I would gladly pay $5.00 for a coffee if I knew that every time I had one from the same place it was going to be of exceptional quality But if you're parting with that sort of dough and you end up having a crap coffee... well I for one would not come back! So at the end of the day its your call. Only you know what your client base is like, and only you have a knowledge of your coffee skills and expertise, and an awareness of your overheads. At the same time these are things that need to be worked out in advance prior to opening a new venture - and there should be very little room for second guessing Cheers, Pat

GrindOnDemand · August 2007

Coffee-forum, I know ... but am I being anal for wishing to read through some readable & bloody proper grammar? I'm still trying to perfect my rosettas, not deciphering the Rosetta Stone!

askthecoffeeguy · August 2007

perhaps you should ask sly and the family stone

GrindOnDemand · August 2007

Somewhat cryptic Pat! Methinks ... does Rocky factor in there somewhere? Sequel no.58, Sly's gotta be a double-ristretto morning guy to survive, surely.

askthecoffeeguy · August 2007

and rocky only features if he's my regular Rancillo guy - who flies by first thing in the morning to dose-up my beefed up Bezzera for barista basics and a quick shot (or should I say slow extraction) of espresso

GrindOnDemand · August 2007

chefrob, you've hit the proverbial on the proverbial ... premium-price paid by the customer depends not only on the quality of the goods, but the whole 'feel' of your op. My reckoning, know your demographic's psyche, pitch the music & 'feel', then give them a bloody good coffee that gives 'em a yearn to return! Tony

donnas650 · August 2007

In Adelaide, if I could consistently get a double shot flat white $3-3.50, I would be happy. Also, assuming it tastes good. However, $4 would be where most places start, with the exception of a few places. Some places charge $4.50-$5 for a large and that isn't even a double shot. A new drive through coffee place called Muzz Buzz charge about $6 for a large double shot. And what is worst, their coffee is really bad. I only tried it once. Very American(I know, as the person with me at the time said so, and she is American). I have no issue with that, just bad coffee. I have also noticed recently(with yesterday being the most recent experience) that a lot of baristas(if you can call half of these people that) don't wipe or rinse the group head before making another coffee. Surely this is coffee making 101. Anyway, back to the topic, some places in Adelaide do charge for a double shot, some don't. It seems like no rules apply here and even bad coffee shops do well. Go Figure.

donnas650 · August 2007

I went to Greek on Halifax(Adelaide) yesterday and got two large(not huge) takeaway coffees. Based on size, I thought it had better be double shots. It cost $5 each. After I got the coffees, I asked what it would have been for a single shot(which would have meant a weak coffee) and I was told it would have been $4. This is the problem with coffee shops. Who is regulating this? I would gladly pay $5 for a great coffee. This wasn't one. Coffee shops can charge what they want for poor quality coffee and people will still buy from them. They can charge extra for an extra shot, soy, decaf or it just being a Friday. I just want a coffee thats strength is consistent with the size of the serving and I shouldn't have to pay extra for that.

sketchy · August 2007

I went to Greek on Halifax(Adelaide) yesterday and got two large(not huge) takeaway coffees.

DoubleRistretto · August 2007

$5 for a double or $4.00 for a single shot is outrageous in anyone's language - and for Adelaide that's a joke. Even is Sydney you never get much above $3.00 and $3.50 [dble] Spread the word to all your friends and colleagues to avoid this palce, or better still, organise a boycott! dR

espressopronto · September 2007

We price all coffee in house for $4 - it is an upmarket boutique cafe in the CBD and customers have said they are more than happy to pay this price for good coffee and service. but i agree with the coffee guy and say that that price should include options for the customers. soy, skim, or full cream, decaf or caf. they are just options and inclusive in the base price. things that should be charged extra for are syrups (if you do them) double shots (hey potentially thats a shot that could be used for another coffee - if you don't charge 30 or 50 cents, it's kind of like wasting $4 every time you give that away for free!) HOWEVER when a customer asks for strong that is not the same as a double shot. if they are a first time customer i will asume they don't know what they are talking about because our coffee is fairly strong anyway and will just make it less creamy or milky and pour it to maintain the crema at all costs so they get the max impact. you'd be surprised how not doing latte art does make a huge taste difference to certain customers. if, however they have already tried the coffee and want it stronger, i will suggest they go for an extra shot and let them know it's an extra 50 cents. they are uaually fine with that, and you've just upsold to a repeat customer who will probably order it again. however having said that, why is it that some places charge more for a ristretto than an espresso?? shouldn't they be the same price as you're using the same amount of coffee??? -jj

donnas650 · September 2007

The problem isn't paying for an extra shot. The problem is paying for a second shot. See, if I get a normal size coffee I am happy with one shot. If I am getting a large coffee, I expect a double shot, as I am paying for a larger size anyway. Why should I pay for that extra shot on top of the larger size coffee. The consistency is gone if I get a large coffee with a single shot. I am paying for a large coffee, but it is weak due to one shot. It would be like if I paid for premium petrol, and it was watered down, but for me to get the right consistency, I am paying extra on top of the premium price. That extra shot doesn't cost the seller $4, so you aren't losing $4. If you were to charge an extra $1 per shot, you are losing that potential dollar. You could also lose customers through this. That is the trade off. If I go into a coffee shop, I don't know what to order as there is no standard or consistency. It isn't that I don't know what I am talking about, it is just that I am unfamiliar with this shop. I normally ask what will be a decent strength, but not be overly strong and go from there. I can appreciate paying extra if someone wants an extra shot that wouldn't be needed to maintain consistency and for less used items such as decaf, soy, etc., but if I had to pay extra for full cream or an extra shot needed for a consistent strength and I am already paying extra for the next size up, you will lose me as a customer and many more people.

espressopronto · September 2007

the extra shot i was referring to was for the standard size. for larger coffees of course we put in two shots as part of the price. if the cup size changes, you adjust amount of coffee so that the proportions of espresso to milk are right. obviously you misread my last post, donnas650 whatever size cup you choose, you get the apporpriate proportion of espresso to milk. that standard also applies to a larger size. if you asked for a large milk based coffee in my cafe with an extra shot, i would inform you that the price already includes two shots as the cup is larger, and then discuss with you if you would like a triple shot or not and explain to you the difference. although i may mock silly customers here, in the air of sarcasm and indifference, it is a practice of mine to educate every single customer on coffee. even the regulars and coffee afficianados love discussing coffee, it's origin, everything. that's part of customer service, keeping the customer happy while they are waiting, and making the potential customers feel welcome and included. people who knew nothing about coffee other than their experiences with starbucks and granny's nescafe moments become informed and excited about coffee after stepping into my cafe. by the way, our take away prices are obviously cheaper. if you have good quality coffee, professional baristas, friendly staff and celebrity clientele, trust me, your customers would be more than happy to pay $4 for a little piece of heaven too.

donnas650 · September 2007

The post wasn't misread Espressopronto. You didn't refer to size. However, I was posting my response in relation to a number of posts, not just yours, so please don't think it was aimed directly at you. That wasn't my intention. I agree with what you say, and I think it is great that you endeavour to inform all your patrons of the finer points of coffee. I love it when an informed and talented barista takes the time to discuss coffee. $4 for a standard dine in coffee is probably a little steep for a coffee in Adelaide, however, if it was a large takeaway coffee with proportionate strength I would gladly pay up to and more. My issue is paying extra for a shot when that shot should be there. 50c for an extra shot would not concern me at all. $1.00(as I have been charged before) for an extra shot when it should have been included anyway to keep appropriate proportion was my issue. As for latte art, I actually made a comment about that today. I went to a place in North Adelaide that has been opened for 3 months. The latte art on my flat white and my Mum's latte was decent. The coffees were a little cold for my liking and I said to my Mum that I would prefer a decent coffee with poor latte art over latte art on a bad coffee.

GrindOnDemand · September 2007

With the price of milk on the constant rise, maybe those customers who order 'weak' coffees should be paying extra - for the milk & the annoyance factor! ::)

donnas650 · September 2007

Haha. I would go with that. ;D

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