Breville's new dual boiler machine BES900

UNM · August 2011

on 1314351175:

I wont make assumptions on the process Breville use, just highlighting some ways that can be adopted

FYI, Breville have the the OPV calibrated on EVERY BES900 as part of the production process. It is set to 9 bar +/- 0.5bar using a Scace device.

Phil McKnight confirmed this on the other forum back on Aug 18th, as well as in various posts pre-release. Don't know if they actually calibrate the pressure gauge on the machine though.

Muscles · August 2011

on 1314351692:

For 15 years I've struggled to understand why the 2nd shot is always better. Marc, the Java, like most wet-hulled Sumatran's require a very fine grind to extract the best from the bean. Some grinders I've used at the low-end struggle to get the particle size right for a good Sumatran.

Yep 2nd is always better for me... I always thought it was a combination of oils, heating and improving on technique from the first. This is why I always give my guests the first one, unless of course they are coffee heads too. :D

on 1314356195:

Could be wrong, but looked a bit under dosed ? With the puck in the PF, how firm is it ? OH... Would look better with a custom handle ;D AND STOP WALKING AROUND ;D

Definitely underdosed that one, 'twas a soggy puck indeed... Custom handle you say? Any chance you can make a checkerboard like my Pullman Tamper, I'd be happy to pay extra

Here is last vid for tonight. Finer grind and larger dose but same tamp. Gauge ramped up to 10.5 and stayed there until I ended the pull.

Please ignore my wife talking with my mother-in-law in the background...

Koffee_Kosmo · August 2011

on 1314357641:

FYI, Breville have the the OPV calibrated on EVERY BES900 as part of the production process. It is set to 9 bar +/- 0.5bar using a Scace device. Phil McKnight confirmed this on the other forum back on Aug 18th, as well as in various posts pre-release. Don't know if they actually calibrate the pressure gauge on the machine though.

The word Production should not be substituted with Assembly Part of the production process is part of the same scenario or method I have noted in my post above Testing after full assembly is also part of the production process However what I want to know is do they test before or after assembly Or possibly on both occasions KK

Rider · August 2011

on 1314357641:

FYI, Breville have the the OPV calibrated on EVERY BES900 as part of the production process. It is set to 9 bar +/- 0.5bar using a Scace device. Phil McKnight confirmed this on the other forum back on Aug 18th, as well as in various posts pre-release. Don't know if they actually calibrate the pressure gauge on the machine though.

Interesting, as I thought Scace II devices only fitted La Marzocco and E-61 group heads - quote from the espresso parts website... [glow=red,2,300][glow=red,2,300]"Currently for the La Marzocco specifically, but fits most commercial E61 type and the Rancilio group heads."[/glow][/glow] Scace and Scace II tends to confuse a lot of people as well... Scace measures temperature only at the puck. Scace II measures temperature and pressure at the puck. Stuff I have seen (though I haven't looked that hard) showed Breville videoing temp readouts..... that is Scace. Not pressure. May be wrong. EDIT - EDIT - Oh dear, Just watched the link you posted in your comment... Oh dear... how do they ascertain that the machine is Scaced? They did not show a gauge.... Do they know what a Scace is?? I have a Scace II........ If you can't find your way around the intree net to work out how wrong that video is, I'll post a picture of my Scace II tomorrow.... Maybe even a vid of it in action to show calibration. Something that is glaringly missing there....

Koffee_Kosmo · August 2011

I have a video testing the gauge accuracy on my BZ40 with a serviceman,s pressure gauge

KK

Rider · August 2011

on 1314361802:

I have a video testing the gauge accuracy on my BZ40 with a serviceman,s pressure gauge KK

Yes KK, seen that before. Your serviceman's pressure gauge ACTUALLY has a pressure gauge on it........... Who would have thunk.... ::)

Rider · August 2011

The point which I replied to was not about FFP, more about someone stating something obviously not accurate. A Scace does not measure pressure. KK's serviceman does not measure pressure with flow. AM's Scace 1.5 (love it) gets somewhere thereabouts, and he's happy with that. Awesome. I'm looking at a Breville Youtube video stating a machine is being pressure measured with a 'Scace' and clearly it is not. People see this S@#t and believe it....... That is why I replied. You wanna see Scace 2? Just ask.

UNM · August 2011

Sorry, should have said - they use a Scace II. To my mind that is still a 'Scace device', but as a fully paid up pedant, I should have been more specific, I shall chastise myself later. Phil also said a while back he would 'upload a video of a Scace during extraction'. Hopefully that adds some useful info. If I had bought one of these machines and it indicated 11-12 bar with a blind filter, or too fine a grind, I'd be calling Breville customer service to get the issue logged/resolved. I didn't buy one, so will leave it up to those that did to decide if they are happy or not.

Rider · August 2011

on 1314363032:

Sorry, should have said - they use a Scace II.

UNM, That is my whole point... No they don't. That is NOT a Scace 2 device

Rider · August 2011

on 1314363032:

Hopefully that adds some useful info. If I had bought one of these machines and it indicated 11-12 bar with a blind filter, or too fine a grind, I'd be calling Breville customer service to get the issue logged/resolved.

And this is again my point. You would send your machine back if it measured 11-12 on the gauge, yeah? Dude, I have a Vibiemme Domobar Super, and it measures 8.8 on the Scace 2 and around 10.5 on the gauge... The thing is that the gauge does not measure "at the puck", therefore there is loss in the line. A bit of digging will show you this is an expected phenomenon and also there are differences between HX machines and dual boilers. The Breville becomes a separate kettle of fish, due to its unique nature. If my machine showed 9 at the gauge I would take it back... or buy a Scace 2.... ;D Show me where in the Breville video there is an external gauge measuring pressure at the puck....

Koffee_Kosmo · August 2011

on 1314362419:

Yes KK, seen that before. Your serviceman's pressure gauge ACTUALLY has a pressure gauge on it........... Who would have thunk.... ::)

on 1314362435:

OH wow, look at that... I am shocked :o :o :o :o A blind group with gauge and the gauge and system both read close to 9Bar... I guess you paid extra for an OPV that works as intended ;D ;D ;D

;D ;D What can I say I love analogue technology KK

Rider · August 2011

on 1314364017:

;D ;D What can I say I love analogue technology KK

The Scace 2 is analogue ;D ;D ;D

UNM · August 2011

on 1314363418:

UNM, That is my whole point... No they don't. That is NOT a Scace 2 device

But Phil never claimed he was going to post a video of the actual ScaceII test used in the factory, just that he would 'upload a video of a Scace during extraction'. I hadn't read his posts carefully enough first time around. Also, I wouldn't necessarily send my machine back - only if Breville requested it. I WOULD log a call to have my concerns about a potential problem documented and timestamped. Posting on forums has its place, but as stated by me and others in many places is not the correct way to resolve warranty issues. FWIW, I read somewhere (and I paraphrase here from memory) that the Scace and ScaceII are not intended to exactly replicate espresso extraction, but are intended to give repeatable and consistent results so that measurements obtained with one Scace device can be compared to those of another on a different setup. Results will not necessarily have any relevance/equivalence to non-Scace instruments. Instrumentation can be tricky at times, every time you measure something, you change what you are measuring.

Muscles · August 2011

I'm getting closer to dialling in the grind on my Super Jolly and I am finding that I am also getting consistently better shots out of the BDB and am also getting more consistent readings on the gauge very close to the 11bar mark. I don't know about OPV's but I do know that Jeff's Espresso blend from the Gift Pack tastes fantastic even 2 days before his recommended rest until date

DoubleRistretto · August 2011

on 1310481796:

1st delivery is still slated for Aug 1st (fingers crossed) The first order quantity is approx 257 units (a 20 footer) Regards, the Breville marketing guy.

have to say, I still don't get that they only apparently allocated 257 units to the whole of Australia... unless they weren't actually all that confident how they were going to sell [after all the marketing hype]? ???

Lacehim · August 2011

on 1314429950:

have to say, I still don't get that they only apparently allocated 257 units to the whole of Australia... unless they weren't actually all that confident how they were going to sell [after all the marketing hype]?

From memory it was 1 full shipping container. Production had only just started, then when they get here they get tested before sale by Breville. All the marketing has died down at least. I haven't seen anyone from Breville here for a while. Probably having a rest, and moving onto something else. Maybe they could make a decent toaster for me. All the toasters I've had have failed from the same annoying fault.

Anyway. I'm sure I'll get to see one of these BDB one day. I missed out on the Brisbane look see. Did see the article in BS. Had just as much hype as the pre-sales hype on here and CS. I hope they gave Scotty one to take home to replace his Breville 860 for all his hard work. ;D

shape_shifter · August 2011

...what the ones that he gave away

Phil and Dave are both on CS regularly at the moment, in damage control trying to settle people down that can't get things to work.

Rider · August 2011

on 1314395575:

But Phil never claimed he was going to post a video of the actual ScaceII test used in the factory, just that he would 'upload a video of a Scace during extraction'.

Okay... So he used a 'Scace' for his video. I reiterate, a Scace measures temp at puck... A Scace 2 measures temp AND pressure at puck... His video shows a 'Scace' (with lots of weird tubes haniging off it) and then the machine pressure gauge... Again I reiterate...where is the calibration? I fully concur with AM's summary, though... If you are in the process of promoting, distributing and selling (read that as educating the public) then the video is left wanting.

Brett H · August 2011

on 1314434656:

...what the ones that he gave away Phil and Dave are both on CS regularly at the moment, in damage control trying to settle people down that can't get things to work.

I sometimes miss the CS BS when my schadenfreude levels ate a bit low. Next thing you know people will start realizing that a smart grinder is not better than a Rocky and HN will always beat small competitors pricing irrespective of matched wholesale pricing. People will also realize that great service and industry knowledge from the retailer is cold comfort if they are dissatisfied with a product that can't possibly live up to the marketing hype. I've seen and played with the darn things and they are great! But when I went home I almost hugged my own machinery. Was this smug self satisfaction? No... I was glad that I hadn't fallen for the marketing hype and as expected, my gear was in a different league. Very few products can stand up to a marketing push the likes of what we've all witnessed. Witnessed and loved it mind you! Those guys must have brass balls which is why they're successful! If they're machines aren't, it won't matter. They'll go onto the next thing and thus the wheels of consumerism will spin. If you've bought a BDB then love it, enjoy it and congratulations. If it doesn't do all that is promised or work well then log the problem with Breville and hold the bas.....ds accountable. Most importantly however, enjoy the journey... you are braver than me, are having a quite unique caffeinated journey that I and many others aren't privy to. And when you owners speak/post rest assured we'll all listen.

doublerizzy · August 2011

on 1314453108:

If you've bought a BDB then love it, enjoy it and congratulations. If it doesn't do all that is promised or work well then log the problem with Breville and hold the bas.....ds accountable. Most importantly however, enjoy the journey... you are braver than me, are having a quite unique caffeinated journey that I and many others aren't privy to. And when you owners speak/post rest assured we'll all listen.

Thanks brett H, I think my machine does live up to the hype and am very happy with the coffee.

admin · August 2011

Hi dubbleR - great that you've managed to pick one up: would you like to give us all your impressions - eg first impressions after you got it set up on the bench, and then maybe how you've found it after a few days use? cheers A

Cuppacoffee · August 2011

on 1314494616:

Hi dubbleR - great that you've managed to pick one up: would you like to give us all your impressions - eg first impressions after you got it set up on the bench, and then maybe how you've found it after a few days use? cheers A

I'll vote for that!

on 1314453108:

Very few products can stand up to a marketing push the likes of what we've all witnessed. Witnessed and loved it mind you! Those guys must have brass balls which is why they're successful!

Hi Brett Not sure if I should I be flattered. ;D I'm reminded that Barnum is quoted as saying, "there's no such thing as bad publicity". I'm not sure that I agree with that. I find it interesting though, that this thread may well be one of the most widely read on the forum, and seems to have solicited opinions from many people, few of whom have even seen the machine let alone used one. Now, if one happens to agree with Barnum, then contributing in any way to this thread, contributes to the hype. Double R: the machines are tested at point of production, not post production by Breville once they arrive in AU. Rider: The Scace type of device I saw them use was able to be connected to a Fluke and other hardware. Hence the 'weird tubes' you refer to. Forgive me if I defer my trust in Breville's Engineers rather than your observations. I'll leave it at that for now. Cheers Den

doublerizzy · August 2011

A, I am reluctant to write anything at all here as much of the content above seems to be politics, not machines. Angermanagement: Was your remark above some sort of sarcasm? The machine is at the weekender as I have a more expensive Italian machine and grinder at home. My Breville is used with a mazzer doserless grinder. The coffee is really good and on par with my other machine but the steam is not as powerful. Cuppacoffee mentioned that it is long lasting and I agree. My father-in-law had not used an espresso machine and operated it with ease and loved his coffee. I am happy with the build quality of the machine and like the time clock to turn it on in the morning. Others stated that the gauge may be higher than 9Bar and mine is as well- 11.5 bar during extraction. I don't care as the coffee drinks well.

Koffee_Kosmo · August 2011

on 1314502393:

My father-in-law had not used an espresso machine and operated it with ease and loved his coffee. I am happy with the build quality of the machine and like the time clock to turn it on in the morning. Others stated that the gauge may be higher than 9Bar and mine is as well- 11.5 bar during extraction. I don't care as the coffee drinks well.

Thats what its all about Dub-rizz (ps I like your forum name 8)) Its all about what makes ones taste buds dance I often post about Greek/Turkish coffee because I love it Its not to everyone's taste but this coffee style makes my taste buds dance And as a complete opposite thought between the electronic Breville and the direction my gaze is taking me towards a lever machine What machine do you have at home ? KK

Koffee_Kosmo · August 2011

Muscles & Shape shifter I just got a wooden handle for my BZ40 and it feels like a new set of spunky mags on a car I would take AMs kind offer KK

RichardM · August 2011

on 1314528512:

Muscles & Shape shifter I just got a wooden handle for my BZ40 and it feels like a new set of spunky mags on a car I would take AMs kind offer KK

Definitely do. I just modified AM's handle to fit my new Expobar. Just looks so much nicer - much more retro

and feels better in the hand. KK, I think SS already has hers.

Muscles · August 2011

Hi dubblerizzy, I can't fault what ends up in the cup either. Have you altered any of the default settings on pre-infusion or temp? AM, it's all going well. I am drinking more coffee than ever! Using the VST 18g I've come to like dosing 21g and running 35ml over 37-40 seconds with the 7 second preinfusion, the gauge will stay at 11.5 during such an extraction. Texturing milk really is a breeze. Thanks for the offer with the PF handle, I'll be in touch and joining the Custom Wood by AM Club soon

Brett H · August 2011

on 1314502393:

A, I am reluctant to write anything at all here as much of the content above seems to be politics, not machines.

Hi DL, That is exactly the reason you should write a review or at least outline you experiences good an indifferent. Due to the nature of the marketing campaign these threads were destined to become political hotbeds. How could they not be? This machine has not yet truly featured or stared in any of it's forum threads without moderation and site/sponsor intervention. It has played second fiddle to political posturing all along and unless the owners speak up that is where it will remain. You have a chance to do something the marketing campaign and resellers haven't yet accomplished... honestly feature the machine! AM said it right back in the beginning: if the BDB overcomes the Sunbeam's shortcomings it will be a winner. He and I were impressed (not trade in your HX's impressed but impressed none the less). But for the time being he and I remain happy voyers... So.. . Go on DL, please give us something to watch, on a forum where your remarkes won't be deleted if they are deemded "too politically incorrect!"

Rider · August 2011

on 1314496445:

Rider: The Scace type of device I saw them use was able to be connected to a Fluke and other hardware. Hence the 'weird tubes' you refer to. Forgive me if I defer my trust in Breville's Engineers rather than your observations. I'll leave it at that for now. Cheers Den

Cuppacoffee: My observations are based on what they decided to allow into their video: i.e. no 'other hardware'. Interesting that you got to see that 'other hardware' but we get to see the machine gauge only. I would imagine that you should also understand pressure loss down the line. I'll leave it at that for now. Cheers

shape_shifter · August 2011

on 1314533270:

So.. . Go on DL, please give us something to watch, on a forum where your remarkes won't be deleted if they are deemded "too politically incorrect!"

You know Brett, I'm a little disappointed that things went the way they did, I would have loved to have done a blog on the machine in home use (basically the same as what I'm doing with the EM6910), it's warts and all ;D I hope that people like DL do get on the forums and give everyone updated rundowns on how they are going.

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