Imported coffee and freshness

admin · April 2008

We have had a couple of questions recently on the freshness [or staleness?] of imported coffee.

I'd like to have a discussion on this, but because it seems potentially a political subject, a couple of ground rules: I'd like this to be a discussion of facts, not old wives tales, or 'I don't like this or that company'. In fact, I'd prefer it if brand names were not mentioned at all.

I realise this may vary from company to company, but what I'd like is the facts on some of the key factors, if possible from people who've worked for some of the importers of roasted coffee - ie typically how long would the coffee be in storage, and under what conditions, and how long would you allow for shipping [& then storage this end]?

I don't know much about the science of this, but I presume there must be some sort of chemical added to the roasted coffee when it is packed, to try and slow the staling process. What chemicals are used in this process and how successful is it in retarding the staling process? These are the sort of things I'd like input on, from people who know - not guesses.

Once again, please stick to facts; please note - comments like 'XYZ's products are sh*t' are not acceptable, and will be deleted.

-A

askthecoffeeguy · April 2008

Hey Ashley I think this is a great topic for discussion. As far as I know no chemicals are added o coffee except during the growing / harvesting process of some mass-produced and lessor quality coffees To the best of my understanding most packaged beans are ideally consumed 7 to 10 days post roast, although some, such as the Cuban Altura Lavada which I roasted recently seem to be at their best later than this IN the case of the Lavada I found it cupped better 12 to 14 days post-roast, and I know that a lot of international competition blends are purposely designed to be consumed at around the 30 days post roast mark As far as I know (and some professional roasters may be able to help me out here), some beans lend themselves more than others to the aging process, and stretching out the roast profile, my dramatically dropping the roasting temperature between first and second crack, will complete alter the mouth-feel of the coffee for starts, but may also increase longevity in the roast - help me out here guys Given the ideal consumption date of 7 to 10 days post roast, it seems crazy to me that supermarket bought coffee has an 'ideal consumption date' of 2 years post roast! And most roasters seem reluctant to put a 'roasted on' date on their coffee, presumably b/c there is only such a limited window of opportunity when it comes to consumption - with only the smaller micro-roasters following this path Cheers, Pat

nzroaster · April 2008

I'd like to give a bit of a backgound about myself first. I started learning about coffee and the roasting process in a large commercial roastery in NZ. I was production Manager there as well as QA manager. Most of my experience was learnt here. I run a boutique roastery now, and most of what I do is learned since leaving the commercial factory, but it was invaluable to learn the "other side" of coffee. Coffee is a fresh product. From the time the roasting process is finished the coffee starts to release a gas, this gas in turn brings coffee oils to the surface. From the time the roast cools, the gas starts coming out. Once the coffee has finished degassing it starts to go staling. Depending on the type of bean and the roast profile, determines the time for this coffee to "peak". Typically this will vary from 2-3 days to 21 days. The coffee will not go rancid for some time, but this is different to stale. Stale coffee is coffee that has finished degassing 100%. Once coffee has finished degassing, it starts to lose flavour. Coffee packaging cannot stop the aging process. Clever packaging can legnthen the time the coffee takes to degass. The interesting thing about this is that once the packaging is opened, it often catches up with time in seconds. Clever packaging can be as simple as the time between roasting and packing, or as complex as nitrogen flushing to 'enhance' freshness. There are situations which demand coffee roasted a while ago, but for the most part fresh coffee is available to most. FRESH IIS BEST!!!

fattylateplease · April 2008

I was told by a roaster, three weeks is ideal. Just roasted coffee has too much gas.

askthecoffeeguy · April 2008

hey flp - i think that 3 weeks is the ideal period in which to consume the coffee - but 7 to 10 days post roast the the window of opportunity that most roasters aim for cheers, pat

nzroaster · April 2008

I was told by a roaster, three weeks is ideal. Just roasted coffee has too much gas.

It depends on the type of bean, the roaster, and the roast profile. I know roasters who recommend 3-7 days for their product and others who recommend 14-21 days, and everthing in between. As a general rule of thumb, a fast roast has a short de-gass period and a gentle roast has a long de-gass period. It all depends on what you are trying to achieve with your coffee. It also depends how long you rest your coffee before packing it into bags, as too what types of bags it goes into and how it was stored prior to packing. Fresher coffee is harder to work with because of the volitile nature of it. The oils have not completely developed and alot of gas is still in the bean. I know some of the top baristas who serve coffee at 3-7 days to retain alot of acidity. I personally recommend my customers use coffee at 7-14 days, and most agree with that. I have one customer who insists on the freshest possible coffee as he likes it at 5-8 days, others prefer to use it from 10 days on. Personally, I will use coffee at 5-14 days, I find 9-12 days is perfect, fresher than 7 days tastes good still but is hard to work with. I will taste coffee that I have that is older than 21 days, but every time it tells me the same thing, past its best (for me).

psaigh · April 2008

I think really you're dealing with two types of coffee (and coffee roasters here).

nzroaster · April 2008

I think really you're dealing with two types of coffee (and coffee roasters here).

askthecoffeeguy · April 2008

i heard that lavazza were roasting locally now. Anyone else heard anything bout that?

taz · April 2008

The biggest problem is the milk, there is so many chemicals going into the milk these days that you cant really make totaly fresh coffee any more anyway.

askthecoffeeguy · April 2008

i agree that milk is a considerable factor in producing a quality coffee & i commend companies like procal dairies who produce a quality milk product for the cafe market specifically designed to compliment coffee. Even so a quality milk product will not disguise a poor espresso shot & the best freshest quality coffee in the world still tastes like crap if it is not made with love & passion by a skilled professional & not by some ordinary joe who couldn't give a stuff about coffee.

Unknown · April 2008

re: illy, i was learning a little about their packaging. they showed me the massive hopper-tins and how you had to slowly release gas before opening to prevent um, explosion, and then sit the opened tin overnight to release all the gases. apparently the strength of illy's packaging was that because of their nitrogen flushing, coffee was 'fresh' for months, years even. of course, most would venture 'why don't you roast every week?', but i think that for some places that are better off buying coffee in BULK bulk, illy is the best choice. my work and i use coffee that was roasted about ~7 days prior. i do, however, admire illy's scientific and very high-tech approach to the whole business of coffee.

psaigh · April 2008

Lavazza roasts in Sydney, but it's still 6months old.

askthecoffeeguy · April 2008

the more you try and trick up a product the more things that can go wrong with it - as pioneer coffee says above, there is no substitute for freshness...

taz · April 2008

or is there.....

askthecoffeeguy · April 2008

i agree that milk is a considerable factor in producing a quality coffee & i commend companies like procal dairies who produce a quality milk product for the cafe market specifically designed to complement coffee. Even so a quality milk product will not disguise a poor espresso shot & the best freshest quality coffee in the world still tastes like crap if it is not made with love & passion by a skilled professional & not by some ordinary joe who couldn't give a stuff about coffee.

takeaim · April 2008

or is there.....

Which would you choose...? The sourdough from an artisan baker, fresh from the oven OR The white sandwich loaf from the supermarket that was baked 3 days ago I reckon there's no substitute for freshness, many would be happy with the arguably stale bread, same goes for stale coffee. Quote from taz on Yesterday at 2:40pm:

Stunning location though

We get it, you love journal. And sometimes the vibe of the place is what makes it...this thread is about best coffee not cafe. And yes, for many, stale, imported coffee wont taste any different to a fresh locally roasted coffee made well so in the end it comes down to your own taste preference. For me, I know I cant stomach stale coffee, i'll have a migraine instantly same goes for an under-extracted shot using the real (fresh) stuff.

fattylateplease · April 2008

Comparing bread is a little silly as they a two very different styles. As for coffee, much of the public couldn't tell the difference between stale coffee and fresh coffee - I doubt most working in the industry could either. Secondly, I doubt most punters would care either way as long as they get it quick and get back to the office with some kind of kick. I was talking to customers today to get a little picture of customer ideas: Most hate weak milky coffees And most seemed to dislike cool coffee Most disliked a particular brand off coffee on the basis of the last place they drank that brand, it was a crock dog droppings and badly made. And suits seem to like anything remotely cheap :-/

psaigh · April 2008

As for coffee, much of the public couldn't tell the difference between stale coffee and fresh coffee - I doubt most working in the industry could either.

I totally sidagree with these comments. I think you are right with regard to those that have not tasted fresh coffee (and this is true of the vast majority working in the coffee industry, especially with reference to franchised coffee houses) wouldn't be able to tell the difference. But i think you'd be hard pressed to find a person who has/does drink fresh coffee who is happy to settle for anything less, let alone not be able to taste the difference.

Secondly, I doubt most punters would care either way as long as they get it quick and get back to the office with some kind of kick.

Dems fighten words!! Again, I think we both deal with different clientelles. i do agree that there is a vast ammount of caffeine junkies looking for their morning fix, but i think this comment unfairly discounts the countless ammounts of people who do view coffee as a culinary beverage. Specialty coffee is one of the fastest growing industries in Australia and it's not those caffeine junkies who are driving this growth.

askthecoffeeguy · April 2008

I agree and with Melbourne sporting more cafes than there are people to fill them at present - thanks to every new apartment block tagging one on for good measure - there is increased demand for quality specialty coffee, as those coffee establishments which do not distinguish themselves from others through superior products and services, will find themselves fighting for a dwindling percentage of market share I know which end of the market I am aiming for with my cafes, and it doesn't include fighting it out over a $2 coffee or a $5 coffee and cake deal P

Unknown · April 2008

I realise this may vary from company to company, but what I'd like is the facts on some of the key factors, if possible from people who've worked for some of the importers of roasted coffee - ie typically how long would the coffee be in storage, and under what conditions, and how long would you allow for shipping [& then storage this end]? I don't know much about the science of this, but I presume there must be some sort of chemical added to the roasted coffee when it is packed, to try and slow the staling process. What chemicals are used in this process and how successful is it in retarding the staling process? These are the sort of things I'd like input on, from people who know - not guesses. -A

It's an interesting topic, for sure. I work for a commercial roastery (and no, I won't say which!), and I've worked with a couple of the imported espresso blends in Melbourne as a barista as well. Our policy on freshness is quite simple, if it still tastes the way we imagine it should when fresh, then it sells. This seems quite vague, but while selling the beans over a retail counter, the staff taste the coffees with customers constantly - they have a good idea how it tastes when it is fresh, and how it tastes as it falls away. This means that beans are generally pulled from the shelves if the roast date is two weeks prior to selling. As was said before, different beans seem to have different shelf lives, but generally it's less than three weeks. Here I should mention that the tasting of the coffees in a retail setting is done through single cup paper filter, ground and made to order. I mention it because I think espresso coffee can last longer than two weeks if stored correctly (and depending on the roast length, and roaster type). The best espresso I've had made with our blend (at a wholesale customer's cafe) turned out to be just on one month old! We don't recommend it, but the result was amazing. As far as importing and exporting is concerned.. We don't ship our coffee overseas, the policy is that the freight time is too great, and we aren't sure how the air pressure/temperature changes affect the wee beanies. We allow one or two days for shipping time. I would like to suggest to Pioneer Roaster that staling can occur before the beans are totally degassed. I define staling as "too much CO2 loss" (i.e. the coffee has lost all it's "bounce"), or oxidization creating a cardboardy or woody taste in the bean. The oxidization must be able to occur in pressurized and gas flushed containers somehow, otherwise that coffee company's coffee would taste the same as freshly roasted coffee, and to me it doesn't. The theory seems sound - if the pressure inside the bean is equalized with the pressure outside the bean, why would any escape? - but from the results I have to disagree. I believe this has to do with staling occurring before pressurization, or degassing.

Reschsmooth · May 2008

Comparing bread is a little silly as they a two very different styles. As for coffee, much of the public couldn't tell the difference between stale coffee and fresh coffee - I doubt most working in the industry could either. Secondly, I doubt most punters would care either way as long as they get it quick and get back to the office with some kind of kick. I was talking to customers today to get a little picture of customer ideas: Most hate weak milky coffees And most seemed to dislike cool coffee Most disliked a particular brand off coffee on the basis of the last place they drank that brand, it was a crock dog droppings and badly made. And suits seem to like anything remotely cheap :-/

I agree with this. I have worked in Crows Nest where there is a plethora of cafes, and the franchises and cafes selling big, national brands still get their fair share of customers. Of those where coffee is made with care and passion, the general public are not beating a path to their door. I now work in Brookvale, and the quality of the coffee produced is absolutely abysmal. Yet, the demand is still there. Whilst there may be an increase in the appreciation for good coffee, the actual demand isn't there. If there was, top restaurants would be serving good coffee as opposed to the swill served up by the dish-hand. If the demand was there, pricing would differentiate between the good and the bad. At the moment, there is unlikely to be any price differentiation between Campos & McCafe - why? Because the AVERAGE consumer doesn't care. Anecdotely, every other section of the food industry maintains a price spectrum based, at least in part, on quality. Except coffee (I am sure there are other examples). For those cafes who do give a damn and produce fantastic coffee, see what happens if you charged at a price point which reflects your quality. My overall point is not to compare one cafe that does it well to another that does it poorly, but to illustrate, based on my experiences, that there are still sufficient crap coffee outlets which demonstrate that the average consumer doesn't care.

taz · May 2008

Freshness and quality starts to blur anyway because the differences become so minute that it starts coming down to who is behind the machine on any given day. My biggest pets aer. 1) People who make cool coffee's when you asked for a warm coffee and then tell you thats how it should be. I dont give a flying fuck because I am paying and I dont want a cool coffee. Its fucking cold outside get the picture and the sugar doesnt melt and it taste disgusting when you get to the end. 2) People who cant make a proper cappa and tell you its some gee whizz fucking modern upto date way of making one. If I wanted a latte with chocolate on top I would fucking ask for one. If a customer is paying then they should get what they want. That goes for all businesses as well.

askthecoffeeguy · May 2008

Freshness and quality starts to blur anyway because the differences become so minute that it starts coming down to who is behind the machine on any given day

hmmm... not sure i agree with you there taz sure it all comes down to who is on the machine on any given day but even a good barista can not disguise the flavour of stale coffee likewise great equipment and fresh produce does not necessarily make for a great coffee, if the guy behind the machine is having an off day in what other industry would the producer put so much time and effort into developing an amazing product, only to have it stuffed up by some young punk with a hangover, or who just couldn't give a stuff ahhh... its a fickle world that we live in! P

takeaim · May 2008

taz, sounds to me like your idea of a cool coffee is what i consider the correct temp and your warm coffee, I consider too hot. your description of the cap you dont want also sounds like something i would tell you.

I know a few places you can still get a mt everest cap if you're tempted ;D

taz · May 2008

taz, sounds to me like your idea of a cool coffee is what i consider the correct temp and your warm coffee, I consider too hot. your description of the cap you dont want also sounds like something i would tell you.

Unknown · May 2008

taz, sounds to me like your idea of a cool coffee is what i consider the correct temp and your warm coffee, I consider too hot. your description of the cap you dont want also sounds like something i would tell you. I know a few places you can still get a mt everest cap if you're tempted ;D

Rather a proper one made with smooth creamy milk with that sweet taste.

hear, hear. i hate the trendy flat cap. it's worse because I have to pour them at work. oh, i also think that too many baristas tend to make cold coffee. 'don't burn the milk' was the first thing most of us were taught and i think a lot of people take it too far nowadays. i know i did that for a good few months...

fattylateplease · May 2008

60-65 degrees is standard 40-50 degrees is what lot of places are doing now. Has got be somewhere there as I have tested it with a milk themometer. You can still get rich dense creamy sweet tasting milk at 60 degrees. I can tell you one thing, especially in winter, if the customer thinks its too cold then they won't be back again. I'd rather it 60 degrees to be on the safe side and see the customer back the next day rather than fall on my pride. I hate flat caps. They are not caps. I like creamy dense milk (Not fluffy sculpturing consistency milk) and loads of it.

Unknown · May 2008

in my first cafe, anything less than 67-69 was too cold - clientele were mostly an older crowd. right now, where the clientele are as close to 'standard' as they get (i suppose), somewhere around 65 hits the spot. my boss is the first one to yell at me if i go any colder... on cafes serving lukewarm coffee, too much below 50 is just bullshit. i would guess that many of them are in 'trendy' locations where arrogant baristas think they are the shit and can serve warm coffee and claim that they're serving milk 'correctly'. i have come across those way too often. i mean, yeah, throughout the WHOLE industry there's the whole 'what you should vs. what you shouldn't', it's a very subjective thing, but one thing I think people can generally agree on is that nobody really wants a 40 degree cup when they ask for a standard flat white.

askthecoffeeguy · May 2008

I've had two coffees served at around the 50C mark in the last couple of days - one was prob 55C and was passable (at least the coffee tasted great even if it didn't last long) and the other was more like 48C and I cant say I would rate the coffee - even though both of these places were self-styled coffee 'pioneers' To me its about giving the customer what they want, as well as setting new standards for flavour / consistency etc Yes, I think its great that some places are experimenting with cutting edge equipment to wring every last subtle nuance out of the shot, but NO, I don't think that the average customer should be left out of the equation At my work I would say that we heat our milk somewhere in the vicinity of 63C (which is too cold for some / many) but at the same time we updose and run our shots a bit longer, as this seems to compliment and enhance the flavour profile of the coffee, and this tends to bring the overall temperature of the finished product up marginally as well (which is more noticeable in a 12oz coffee) - which suits most folks quite well I still have customers asking me to burn the milk for them though, and if that's what they want, then that's what they get! Although, I prefer to half pour the coffee and then steam the contents of the cup which means in theory at least, they are still getting a half serve of 'decent' milk as opposed to burning the crap out of the lot of it Pat

askthecoffeeguy · November 2008

oh boy - it doesn't get any fresher than that!

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