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Should I citric bath my scaled boiler?

colinwencolinwen
edited January 1970 in Espresso Machines
Hi all,
Luckily enough I pick up a 10 yrs old ECM Giotto Classic from a town next to me few days ago.
I am not sure if its a bargain but I can never find a 2nd hand E61/HX machine next to me I reckon.

When I inspect the machine, all works fine, but I can see it has not been taken good care.
I start to backflush it with coffee detergent when I brought it back.
And use some coffee machine commercial descaler following the "full descaling advice for HX machine" from CS.

PC310406.JPG
However, after more than 20 times cleaning cycle (fill with water, drain), there are still some chunks in the water come out.
P1010413.JPG

I wonder if its possible to dissemble the boiler for citric acid bath is necessary?

I dont think I have the money for a comprehensive service so far (the machine burn my pocket).
I prefer learn the skill myself unless something out of my league.

Advice or suggestion is appreciated.

Cheers
Colin
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Comments

  • mycuppamycuppa
    Agree with AM on this one. I'm sorry, but this needs to be said in practical terms......... I come across many people who either call me for help, or drag in equipment that has suffered some DIY attempt. Generally, the people fall into one or many of the following groups....... 1. Their desire to learn the innards of espresso machines (curiosity is not necessarily a bad thing), or 2. The inevitable consequence of researching too much information on the internet (some of it right, other times a little skewed or incomplete) believing it's an easy process........or 3. Those suffering a small bout of paranoia that their equipment because it's > 12 months old (generally the affliction caused by #2) and it absolutely must contain lurking out of sight some junky monster build-up that is obviously affecting both efficiency and effectiveness - mind playing tricks....do people really know what the baseline/reference point is for an operational machine ?. No offense intended, but I remain gobsmacked as to why some people think it's absolutely necessary to attempt DIY de-scaling on equipment without fully understanding the risks and issues involved. Call it out for what it is.......one of the 3 items above but generally a combination of all in various proportions. As a general rule, if you acquire equipment with an unknown past, make a considered and firm decision to either undertake a resto or put in place some preventive steps to minimize further side-effects of scale assuming the equipment is currently working OK. Obviously a bit difficult if you can't see the internals. The number of machines that have come in to me with partially blocked or highly caustic conditions as a result of a DIY descale attempt is frightening. I'm sure these people take appropriate steps in their non-coffee related life to avoid exposure to toxins and yet subject themselves to added risks via DIY descaling. These days, I advise "AGAINST" DIY descale without full removal of the chemicals from within the boiler components. Flushing water through traditional shots does not work and you may be ingesting harmful chemicals for weeks or possibly months afterwards and of course the house of cards situation where particles are now moving around the hydraulic circuit is like playing Russian roulette.
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  • colinwencolinwen
    Thanks AM and mycuppa, Of coures, if its not necessary, I am not keen to take my machine part. I am not that coffee machine geek yet. I just try to make sure I did a proper clean job/descaling for this new baby. The "full descaling" I meant is from CS thread about remove the boiler level probe to full filled with water and flush. If the descale tablet from 6910 is not a proper one, I may stop by our local shop to pick one descaling liquid to do the job all over again. However, I still can see the chunks are still coming out of my hot water wand, I may need to do another few liter flush to wipe them out from my boiler. And another problem just jump out when I do my flushing. This morning when I just keep doing the flush, I found there is some steam came out from a valve which connect to boiler. After check the part catalog, the name is "Vacuum breaker valve", part number:C219903151 (mine is Giotto Classic, which plus will be A21990560). The problem is after few "full filled with water and flush" cycle. There is some water start to come out from this valve. At beginning, I though I just fill too much water, but after put back the probe (boiler level probe), the water is still coming out from this valve. I can not understand why the valve start to works faulty since I did not do anything (except descaling). I am worried if I need to order the part to replace this valve. Possible the chunk stock inside the valve, any other solution except pulling it apart? Thanks.
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  • Brett HBrett H
    No mate, if you've too much water in your boiler (becasue you've overfilled it) it's gotta go somewhere when the element kicks on and starts heating.  Your pressure safety valve just hasn't had a chance to close because there is too much water to pressurise it.  Loose some of the water and it should be fine.
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  • Dry_bean.Dry_bean.
    G'Day Colin, I have always used Cafetto Restore, does a good job, for backflushing I use Cafetto EVO both available from http://www.coffeeparts.com.au/accessories/cleaner one of our sponsors. Have not used the descale tablets so cant comment on them. Congratulations on the purchase of your Giotto, hope it works out well for you. :)
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  • colinwencolinwen
    Just google around the faulty of "vaccum breaker", then got some idea about maybe some calcium stock inside. I got a descaler liquid to put the "vacuum breaker" in, after 20min, put the vacuum breaker back. it works fine now. :D Now just do more flushing and may got the descaler suggested by you guys. I have Cofeto for the normal coffee cleaner, it does a great job, I might got the descaler one. Looks like a quite good deal. Thanks a lot.^^
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  • Dry_bean.Dry_bean.
    on 1325488850:
    Just google around the faulty of "vaccum breaker", then got some idea about maybe some calcium stock inside. I got a descaler liquid to put the "vacuum breaker" in, after 20min, put the vacuum breaker back. it works fine now. :D Now just do more flushing and may got the descaler suggested by you guys. I have Cofeto for the normal coffee cleaner, it does a great job, I might got the descaler one. Looks like a quite good deal. Thanks a lot.^^
    Well done Colin, it's good when a plan works out, Caffetto make excellent products, just make sure you flush the boiler well with fresh water as per instruction on the label. :thumb: 
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  • colinwencolinwen
    Since I just took the vacuum breaker off, and been lazy to flush the boiler again and again. I have my crazy idea... I plug in the pipe from tap water, then I just turn on the tap for 30 mins. P1020424.JPG I got a lot of chunks been washed out. P1020425.JPG I assume its the end of the first flush now. I will get another descaler next couple days and do the lazy flush again.^^
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  • RichardMRichardM
    on 1325500472:
    Since I just took the vacuum breaker off, and been lazy to flush the boiler again and again. I have my crazy idea... I plug in the pipe from tap water, then I just turn on the tap for 30 mins.
    Heh, car radiator style. Let's hope you don't get a leak anytime soon and bung in some Bars Leaks :D
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  • Brett HBrett H
    Nice work mate.  Glad you are up and running. 
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  • colinwencolinwen
    Hi all, Need some help here to sort out some problem now. As I mentioned before I got a 2nd hand Giotto Classic. I was slowly clean and do other maintains (clean outside). However, this morning when I fire it up, I found the water current from group head is smaller than before. Tonight, the current even smaller and I notice the needle of pressure gauge wont back to zero unless I give it a general kick. I used the commercial descaling tablet (JURA descaling tablet) when I first got this machine. Because there are a lot of chuck come out from boiler, so I order the Cafetto vanish descaler as suggestion by lots people and waiting for it to arrive. Between these, I did not turn on the lever to use the group head until yesterday. I feel like it is some chuck stuck in the heating element or group head? Is any way I can get it out except pulling everything apart? Or I just wait for the Cafetto descaler to clean the group head pipe? I am pretty worried about this machine. Cheers Colin
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  • Koffee_KosmoKoffee_Kosmo
    Based on observations - citric acid although good its not the best It flakes off any scale - this will cause problems later on with chunks fouling the lines and small water channels A proper de-scaling chemical in correct strength is best and don't skimp on cost This will dissolve the chunks to almost liquid to be flushed out And will save you time in the long run KK
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  • colinwencolinwen
    Thanks KK, My order of Cafetto descaler is on the way. So you will suggest that I will just wait for the descaler arrive then give it another descaling? Cheers
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  • Koffee_KosmoKoffee_Kosmo
    on 1326113046:
    Thanks KK, My order of Cafetto descaler is on the way. So you will suggest that I will just wait for the descaler arrive then give it another descaling? Cheers
    Dont rush the job Let it soak a while as dwell time is important And as AM has said if some scale has lodged in a place where the de-scaler does penetrate you may need to remove a part and dismantle to clean and replace KK
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  • colinwencolinwen
    Thanks AM and KK, I will wait and get the Cafetto descaler and then see what happened. If not luckily enough, I may have to learn how to dissemble the machine.... :'(
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  • colinwencolinwen
    Update the story, I received the Cafetto vanish descaler this morning. I follow all the information/suggestion on this forum how to use the descaler properly. On my third runs to re-fill the water tank, I notice the boiler stop input the water (pump did not move). And there is no pressure, no steam, no water from hot water wand. When I lift the lever, the pump did move. So according to the previous information around this forum, my control borad (relay) is died, right? Is there any other diagnostic way to narrow down the faulty? Or I may just bring it to the local Giotto service instead. Cheers
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  • Koffee_KosmoKoffee_Kosmo
    on 1326437069:
    When I lift the lever, the pump did move. So according to the previous information around this forum, my control borad (relay) is died, right? Is there any other diagnostic way to narrow down the faulty? Or I may just bring it to the local Giotto service instead. Cheers
    AM is probably the person to answer this When you say the pump worked when the lifted the lever - you need to understand that the lever has 3 functions The function that you want to know about is the On/Off that is operated by the cam It could be a simple thing, as a micro-switch problem KK
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  • colinwencolinwen
    Thanks for AM & KK's quick reply. I did got a local service number from ECA (they also suggest I should leave it to a good hand when I quote the parts). I think I will bring the machine to the shop tomorrow morning to get a quote about the service then. I feel like it should be the time now...(since so many minor issue happen here and there). Thanks for all the response
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  • colinwencolinwen
    Good news!!! Last night before I bring it to the local service, I just open up the case and read the wiring diagnostic figure. I found the thermo switch and pressurestat can be the possible faulty part besides the circuit board. Therefore, I just have a close look at pressurestat and thermo cut-off switch. I know AM and others on this forum have suggest me not to DIY due to some potential lethal accident may happen or I can make the machine worst. When I saw the pressurestat, I found the red small thingy is a bit separate than before. I assume the mechanism of pressurestat is detecting the pressure then cut off the power connection. Then I just kind of push it back. P1140476.JPG Plug the power back then everything back to work!! Horay!!! Now I am doing the descaling again, I may order the pressurestat to replace the old one, in case it happen again. Thanks for all the help on this thread. I will definitely bring it to service once I pass my student scholarship poor life. Cheers Colin
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  • colinwencolinwen
    Another problem just happened (again....). I believe this time is nothing to do with hard core stuff but might difficult to find the part. When I do the descaling cleaning part, I turn on/off hot water tap. Then suddenly the knob came off. After a close look, the end tip of the middle of valve broken. I pull it apart and seems I can replace the middle metal thingy, however, I can not find a part no on the Giotto's part list. I wonder if I really need to buy the whole tap valve or I can source a part? Any advice? Thanks.
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  • Koffee_KosmoKoffee_Kosmo
    on 1326594746:
    Another problem just happened (again....). I believe this time is nothing to do with hard core stuff but might difficult to find the part. When I do the descaling cleaning part, I turn on/off hot water tap. Then suddenly the knob came off. After a close look, the end tip of the middle of valve broken. I pull it apart and seems I can replace the middle metal thingy, however, I can not find a part no on the Giotto's part list. I wonder if I really need to buy the whole tap valve or I can source a part? Any advice? Thanks.
    You should be able to get just the inside section So I suggest a call to coffeeparts for availability See this link and view part # 617123 http://www.coffeeparts.com.au/ecm/ecm-spare-parts-5 ecm5.png KK
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  • colinwencolinwen
    Thanks KK and AM again. I do feel like to follow AM's great advice, I know my limitation after this experience. I wont do anything to do with the electricity without knowing what I am doing. About the theromostat, I really dont know what happen. I was lever up the water through the group head, then I go back to my desk to read some other coffee information. Then the machine start to heat up. I assume it comes from some water/steam pass through the anti-vacuum breaker (mine is a bit faulty). The water touch the thermostat then the safety cut-off. Without realizing its a reset function, I was thinking something wrong with the circuit borad (luckily its not). Afterward I just keep doing the cleaning and descaling flushing. with some basic dissemble the group head. Really appreciate people's advice and information here. Especially AM emphasizing the the safety in any case I eletrocute myself.   I hope my machine will come to working condition very soon. (thanks KK for the part number which I missed from the diagram) Colin
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  • colinwencolinwen
    Just quick update what happen to the broken part. I have sent the email to coffeeparts and ECA. Answer from ECA is I have to buy the whole valve, it will cost me 80. I feel its kind of waste natural resource (and I am cheap too >_< ). I brought the broken part to the workshop in our uni to discuss the possibility of fixing it. End up with a conclusion to cut a groove a bit lower if the space missed is acceptable. Since I always have to turn several round to turn on the tap water and I also saw an extra washer inside. I assume it will be fine to loss 2mm length. The fixed part photo is attached. I made a double shot cappuccino for return the favour. Although he said he is a instant coffee drinker, he still the tell the cappuccino I made is better than the shop in uni. I am glad both of us are happy.^^ Now the fixed part has put back to tapwater valve. Everything is slowly getting ready. Now I just need to flush the shower head few times more with clean water. Because I feel I can still smell the rusted smell (like a old tap water). Not sure if it comes from the descaling process. Colin
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