I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

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• Koffee_Kosmo

  January 2012

  Hi Colin I recommend that - Possible Problem 1 Let your machine come up to temperature over a 30 minute period Just before you lock in the porta filter (PF) you flush the head until all boiling water runs out Then lock and pull the shot Possible Problem 2 Make sure that you have the correct depth of your tamped coffee puck It should just clear the shower screen when the PF is locked in - start at approx 8mm depth and adjust from there (so you need to experiment a little to find it for your machine) Your tamp must also be level - if not?  water will rush to the lowest point and cause extraction problems KK

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• littleroundman

  January 2012

  Did the OP happen to measure the volume/time of the pictured pour ?? It's impossible to judge without knowing at what point of the pour the pic was taken, but my immediate impression at first view of the pic was that it shows an overextracting shot.

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• mycuppa

  January 2012

  And it's also difficult to diagnose without describing what you are tasting in the cup - is it burnt, sour, acidic ? How are you measuring your brew water temp of 94 - 96 ? I would suggest lowering it by at least 2 degrees as a starting point. As per KK's suggestion, ensure you perform a few cooling flush. Finally, are you VERY SURE there are no remnants of chemical cleaning agents in your boiler. This is the #1 cause of bad coffees post cleaning duties. Reality is, when you use cleaning agents they remain in your boiler for a long time unless you have dismantled and flushed. I know of situations where the cleaning agents have been present for weeks afterwards, despite plenty of flushing.

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• Ronin

  January 2012

  Pity I didn't see this thread last week. I was in Townsville Friday and Saturday. Would have been good to catch up and play. I can't offer any more than whats already posted though.....Sorry

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• colinwen

  January 2012

  Thanks for all's reply. I will try to clarify some information here. The flushing after descaling was conducted more than 50 times before I start the first shot. I do smell the water a bit weird at first 20 shots. I used the "radiator" flushing method (as I posted before) to boiler and a lot of flowing from group head. I spent almost two whole days during weekend just make sure I flush out the chemical (still no guarantee tho). Temping should be even, otherwise the flavour from EM6910 should be the same. Both of them are using VST basket (18g), 21g of coffee. The photo I posted is using Kenya bean, city + roasted (a bit too light roast I feel), but still good aromas from EM6910. The most different blend from EM6910 and Giotto are KJM blend (from CS), and mocha-Java blend (50% Yemen + 50% Indonesian Java). The coffee from EM6910 is much sweet than Giotto. Giotto ones are more bitter and lost most of the sweetness. I did not do the cooling flushing tho. I believe I notice that from several Youtube (esp. from ECA), but I forgot to do that most of the time. About the OPV setting from AM's suggestion, I did not realize I can adjust that until now. I will go some research and see what will happen. Thanks again for all the help. In any case if any one pass by Townsville again, I will treat them my coffee but people have to show me the correct way to play giotto tho.  >:D (@ Robin, if you plan to visit TSV again, pls let me know ^^) Thanks for all again. cheers Colin

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• Lacehim

  January 2012

  Colin, You should beable to use your sunbean dual wall baskets to adjust the OPV.  AM has more details, but I think it you can get the flow right thought the presurised baskets it's around 8.75 bar or something like that. Also it's a new machine, you'll have to dose differently, and tamp differently perhaps.  Thats where I would be starting if it where me.  As mentioned above, only change one thing at a time, it's tempting to change lots, but take it slow and it will go more smoothly. It all comes down to what ends in the cup, you can play, worry about what colour the pour is, how long it is, or how much you get, but if it tastes lovely, don't stress too much!

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• Ronin

  January 2012

  on 1327366316:

  (@ Robin, if you plan to visit TSV again, pls let me know ^^)

  Assuming that's me  ;D, will do. Prob not again for a while, maybe later in the year. Ronin = Colin

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• colinwen

  January 2012

  Just come back to update what happen so far. I accept people's suggestion, I adjust the pressurestat to make the boiler pressure back to 1.1 now. I did not see too much different in the cup for the first test. I start to adjust the grinder again to a bit corse and more amount. I also follow the cooling flushing progress for E61 machine's protocol. The cup start t taste less bitter, but still quite bitter than same blend from EM6910. However, I did found the espresso temp between Giotto and EM6910 are far different. I start to wonder if possible that I used to EM6910 so bad that I can not accept the ideal & proper one (ie Giotto)? The blend I used in the past few days is Mocha-Java (50% Yemen and Indonesia Java). I can taste the coco flavour in my mouth and acidity. Same coffee from Giotto start with bitterness and a bit chocolate in the end. Maybe its more close to Italian espresso? However, I still can not enjoy it as from EM6910. About frothing milk part, I still need to practise more. The very last one from Giotto start to have some froth..(finally). Before that, I only can make huge bubble and heating the milk without any froth.. I have heard the KK style, however could not find it so far. Anyone can give me a head up? About the OPV, I can see where is located in my machine. However, I feel the PF with pressure gauge is quite necessary for adjust the right pressure ?(11 bar from what I have read?).   I have the clean disk from EM6910, but did not see any post about how to use the clean disk to adjust the HX machine. Any one can give me some link or advice? I will post the video and photos later this week to show the shot I have so far. Cheers Colin

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• Koffee_Kosmo

  January 2012

  I have heard the KK style, however could not find it so far. Anyone can give me a head up?

  Go to this blog link Colin http://koffeekosmo.blogspot.com/2010/11/koffee-komo-method-to-creating-great.html

  About the OPV, I can see where is located in my machine. However, I feel the PF with pressure gauge is quite necessary for adjust the right pressure ?(11 bar from what I have read?).

  Give the OPV a try at 9.5 to 10 bar KK

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• mycuppa

  January 2012

  Can I suggest before you adjust settings any further, go and buy some high quality commercial fresh roasted coffee beans and if you know a skilled barista, get them to pull some shots so that you know the extraction is within a respectable ballpark for your type of machine. Please, you should not be confusing the situation by discussing beans when trying to resolve a machine issue. Eliminate as many variables as you can. Take the bean issue out of the equation. Just because you are getting an OK shot on the sunbeam does not mean it will work the same on the Giotto. I've had people lug their machines into my roastery almost in tears having spent major $$ on new upgraded equipment, blaming beans and everything else when it was just technique - they were trying to use the same methods and it was just wrong, they got very frustrated and upset - suspecting defective equipment. Go back to first principles and approach your Giotto as a new learning experience. With quality beans, play with grind, dose, tamp and extraction till you are happy with the result, then compare it to the other machine. I can't imagine your OPV will be causing such a contrasting difference. Even am abnormally high setting can be compensated for with a few experienced barista tricks. Unless of course you have been tinkering with things you are not sure about and have negatively impacted the operation of the machine - in which case you should be taking the machine to a service technician as I doubt you will find the solution on forums - it may need the attention of someone with the knowledge, experience and the correct testing equipment.

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• colinwen

  January 2012

  Thanks KK for the frothing skill. @ AM Thanks for the detail. Only problem is I did not have the PF w/ pressure gauge. The Giotto Premium (not plus) did not have the pressure gauge. Your assumption is correct. I have not bring the machine to local service center yet. @mycuppa I dont want to be corky. But I have used the home blend from local roaster for EM6910 (not sure about high quality)- coffee dominion which is also the service center suggested by ECA for 3ish years before I start my home roaster. I have to say, after first few experimental batch, the later whatever single origin is far better than their home blend. (I got confirmed by other coffee drinkers here too). Maybe the blend which is definitely mixed with arabica and robusta, I have tried one of their single origin, Ethiopian Harrar. I did not see they have the far better bean than my home roaster. Of course, they are commercial roaster, their quality is more consistance (I have to admit sometimes I roast good one, sometimes roasting is just drinkable). And they can produce quite huge amount of bean (where I only can roast 400gram per 20 - 30mins) Evenmore, I have few friends, who works as a barista at local shop (Juliet where use Di Bella's bean, and benbini where seems not care too much about their coffee). They all enjoy my roast (of course, I did not try to see who is better). What I am saying here is, live in far North QLD, I dont think I can get mush help for quality coffee with good price. However, I will still bring my Giotto to Coffee Dominion to see what they said. Only thing I am worried is I have heard from my barista friend and some loyal customer from them saying some partnership have changed over there. I believe I will still bring my machine there to make sure at least this Giotto get some good care from certificated technician. I will see what happen after the machine get service by them. Cheers Colin

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• colinwen

  January 2012

  failed, failed, failed... So frustrated now... Again.. I can not get good espresso and even milk froth. I tried three times this morning, followed people's advice. Still can not get as good as I expected. I stop by the local roaster/service center- Coffee Dominion to ask the quote for calibrating service since I have done the descaling/cleaning. The technician-Ben is quite friendly and patient. Even there are a lot of customer behind me for ordering coffee (which is the real business there). He still listent carefully to what I said about the situation. I think I mistaken this shop by their arrogant barista in front desk. He quote the service is about 60-80, which I believe is a fair price for few hours professional job. And it can buy me a good night sleep too. Of course, no guarantee I can start to make good coffee after that. At least I have a ground zero to start with instead of trial and error. Thanks again for people relying this subject, I will keep it posted once I got the machine back. Colin

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• Brett H

  January 2012

  on 1327789827:

  failed, failed, failed... So frustrated now... Again.. I can not get good espresso and even milk froth. I tried three times this morning, followed people's advice. Still can not get as good as I expected. I stop by the local roaster/service center- Coffee Dominion to ask the quote for calibrating service since I have done the descaling/cleaning. The technician-Ben is quite friendly and patient. Even there are a lot of customer behind me for ordering coffee (which is the real business there). He still listent carefully to what I said about the situation. I think I mistaken this shop by their arrogant barista in front desk. He quote the service is about 60-80, which I believe is a fair price for few hours professional job. And it can buy me a good night sleep too. Of course, no guarantee I can start to make good coffee after that. At least I have a ground zero to start with instead of trial and error. Thanks again for people relying this subject, I will keep it posted once I got the machine back. Colin

  Great posts in this thread guys.  Thank you. Colin, if 60-80 is all they are charging then I think that is an extreme bargain!  I don't know anywhere down here in BrisVegas who would service a Giotto for that price!  AM?  Seriously, for peace of mind and given that you are problably already miles ahead on what a comparable Giotto costs, let the pro's go over it for your safety is nothing else!

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• colinwen

  February 2012

  Thanks AM for the post. Quickly reply Brett's post. I think the 60-80 is more likely for checking the machine instead of service. Because I told them I have done the HX boiler descaling and coffee cleaner progress. Otherwise a 200-300 is the quote from previous owner (he ring the same shop before sell it to me). Some info I think I should add by AM's post. I did put the Giotto and EM6910 next to each other (in the office with AC on), with the same coffee and grinder (switch between two to examine). From myself and my coffee addictive friend, we all love the one from EM6910 (that's after I use cooling flush). Then I brought the Giotto back home where no AC in my kitchen and humidity is over the top (Townsville is raining badly in the past few days). Heat and humidity must have a huge impact on brewing.. However..I just keep change the setting instead of knowing how to change (wonder if there is any theory about how increase 1 degree (or 10% humidity), how finer (or coarser) I should adjust?) The grinder I use in my office is Isomac Professonale (with a modified to get finer ground) and 10+ yrs old Gino Rossi (BOEMA) RR45. Back home I have the Feima (Yang-Chia) 900N which I brought it from Taiwan. I believe all of the grinder above can do the average job for a good espresso. And most frustrating thing is I still can not figure out after I do the cooling flush and did not leave the coffee to burn on the e61 group head, everything should be fine comparing to the coffee I made from EM6910. Anyway, the Giotto is on the professonal's hand now. Back to the story now. I brought the machine to the local service centre which is also local Giotto dealer on Monday. They rang me back yesterday saying they feel no major problem after they check it. I am not sure how they checked it, but during the conversation we decide I will go to their shop to make the espresso with my Giotto to see where is the problem. I feel a bit scary...being a "home barista" (or not yet) and showing a real barista how I make the coffee is huge different. I hope I wont embarrass myself this afternoon. At least good news is there is no major issue with this machine... Colin

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• Lacehim

  February 2012

  Colin, getting some 1 on 1 training and pointers on your own machine is a great idea.  I've said it before and I will say it again, Training!  It can go a long way to solving your problems!  Good luck, and I hope beautiful espresso pours from that lovely machine very soon (too your liking that is! )

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• colinwen

  February 2012

  I almost pack up my stuff and on the way to the coffee shop and then got the phone call we have to postpone the meet up due to the barista forgot he has a day off this afternoon. (He left a voice msg but my dodgy optus did not record anything...) Another quick chat with Jon (who seems like the head of barista over there), he said the boiler pressure is at 1.1 bar and its good (duh..) Brewing pressure (group head pressure) is 9 bar (which I thought this machine is 11 bar according to most of the user's post). He suggested as AM & mycuppa mentioned about the problem may due to grinder and bean. Water might also be a problem since I did the descaling as non-technician (he did not say the exact same words, but similar meaning that I might screw up the machine when I descale it). Therefore, tomorrow we will meet up (again), and I will bring my bean but not grinder. To see what happen to my machine or my palate in the end... I agree with Lacehim about its good idea to have 1 on 1 talk (not sure if its a training). But I also worry he might charge me a huge consulting fee.... Fingers cross...

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• Koffee_Kosmo

  February 2012

  Hi Colin I feel that its mostly user understanding of the process Once the penny drops in understanding the process, then it will be a breeze I often use different or unfamiliar machines First thing I do is find the tamp depth level Second thing I do is to find grind level that works best for the depth of the roasted beans Third thing is the tamp pressure The owners just look at me strangely ?? how the hell did you just pull that shot from my machine in 5 min when I still cant do the same after several months Sometimes I find that they are using incorrect size baskets and that fixers the problem almost immediately The machine works in a certain way - its up to the human to learn to drive it Lets say that the 6910 is a Nissan Micra & the Giotto is an Alfa Romeo so you will need to drive both differently  As noted above  These 3 things are the most crucial for the human to do correctly These 3 elements change with the machine in use Good luck with your lesson KK

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• mycuppa

  February 2012

  on 1328148493:

  Lets say that the 6910 is a Nissan Micra & the Giotto is an Alfa Romeo so you will need to drive both differently  KK

  As an Alfa owner, the comparison to a Giotto is *too* kind.

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• colinwen

  February 2012

  Thanks AM and KK And thanks mycuppa's joke although I can not understand (that mean Alfa romeo is bad or good?). I can understand cross-post may kind of waste the internet resource if same group of people read the same thing all the time. Its only make the feedback less and annoy the member (at least I feel the way when I see the exactly same thing). However, I did believe myself read through most of the people's post and if needed, I reply individually answer. Although sometimes I did not really understand someone's post and sometimes there is nothing I can return except "thanks". I try to follow KK's three golden rule since similar suggestion have been around the forum and internet. However, I use the "same weight/amount of bean" for the first one instead of depth. I am not sure if there are the same thing or not. But I feel its easier to weight the bean (weight the basket) instead of mesure the depth with ruler. Through all the comparison between EM6910 and Giotto, I both use VST basket (15g and 18g). Tamping pressure/power, I have to say I try to use the same but I have not measure my tamping power for a while (since I did that with body scale and pretty mush consistant now). Okay, the following information will be the same as CS. If people have read the same post, you can skip them.

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  Finally~~Here is the end of the story. I went to meet the technician and the boss (head brista) of the local roaster/coffee shop (Coffee Dominion) yesterday. At very beginning, the boss (named Jon) even too busy to meet me due to another business meeting. Because I am that dispirited when I have a quick chat about the machine, he even want me to bring a 700ish grinder back home to try. However, before we met, they have not time to try to use my Giotto to make any coffee. Besides, the technician (Ben) found the water level probe are heavily scaled (even I have done the proper descaling, it can show how terrible the machine was). He did a bit descaling on the probe only. Both Ben and jon agreed this machine has been taken a good care (clean and maintain from me of course). They can not figure out what happen to my cup. Then when I almost have to leave and come back next day, the owner Jon ask me to wait a bit if I am still happy to go through the Giotto together. Because his business partner did not turn out. Luckily, I have the chance to work on the machine this Jon. We had another quick chat about the detail happened to my test between Giotto and EM6910. In order to make sure the coffee machine itself works fine, we use their grinder for first test (Mazzer robur electronic). We spent some time go through different amount of tamping and grinder size and bean. Then the machine can produce great espresso. Because its over their close time, and it has been 1.5 hours since we start all the experiment. Even we have not tried my grinder (Isomac Professionale), we both believe the machine itself is good. We concluded the scaled water level probe has done something in the boiler, to make the water level wrong (probably too high?). Then the water through the heat exchange boiler over heat the water then burn the coffee. That's why I have the over bitterness in my cup. He ask me if I can see the different of steam between before and after service. Honestly I can not... And the most appreciating thing is he ONLY ask me a 20 bucks for the bean we have used!! What a surprise!! He said he can see I am a enthusiastic coffee person, he is happy to see what happen to the machine with me. For him, its a good experience, because obviously not too many people have this machine in our city/town. And people may not tell the difference either in their cup when they use the machine.   I am so touch, because for a businessman like him, there must be hundred and hundred things are more important than playing a machine with amateur coffee drinker. After back home, I did play a bit to see if my grinder is fine. So far, I think I get closer to the sweet spot of my roast bean. I am uploading my pre-service and post-service video. From what I can see the brewing espresso itself is not too distinguishable. But the mouth flavour is such huge different. I am still playing around the machine, I yet can make a good froth milk. I think I just need to practise more often. Thanks again everyone here in this thread who gave any advice and feedback. And Thanks for Coffee Dominion, I was misunderstanding you before about the way you roast. I am a happy Giotto owner now (yet not super tho because of the froth milk part). Colin

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• Brett H

  February 2012

  Fantastic news Colin!  Score 1 for Dominion Coffee!

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• Koffee_Kosmo

  February 2012

  I thought I should post on Colin's behalf the 2 videos I found viewed on Colin's you tube channel so we can comment I also saw the boat trip video Colin or Grandpa Wen :angel: Video 1 routine [embed=425,349] Video 2 routine after service & training [embed=425,349] KK

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• colinwen

  February 2012

  @ Brett Yes, after the whole experience, I feel sometimes I am over judgemental. I see the coffee business from my narrow eyes. Of coures, I understand people need to make money, but I never try to think from their position. After chat with the owner-Jon, he is also struggling between start a business in the way he want and the way customer want. Some customer can not tell the good flavour in cup but complain the coffee does not bitter or strong enough. He had to roast a bit darker and darker, then all the different origin taste the same.... @KK Great internet hacker skill (just kidding, everything is under the sun on internet). Sorry I did not think about post my video here (but CS). Because it seems like the members over there keep asking me to post my video to help me narrow down the possible failure. I have to say, I can even feel my hand is shaking when I video myself. I forgot what is my normal protocol when I video myself. At the most important part, I am also worried if my video did not follow some others's suggestion (or I addict to some bad hobby). However, so far I leant more from expose myself's coffee making. Furthermore, when I slowly increase the better flavour in my coffee, my milk frothing stil crap. Too big bubble or too thin froth. I will try more few times (and re-read all the milk form post again...) Cheers Colin

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• mycuppa

  February 2012

  Great to see it's heading in the right direction Colin - well done. It takes a fair bit of courage to publicly ask for assistance - good on you. With milk - please, no more reading, researching and seeking for a magical silver bullet solution. Save your time, buy more milk and just practice......it will come to you very soon. No amount of tips or tricks with milk will replace the unfortunate effort involved that can only be achieved through practice, practice and more practice. Just like golf - you have to get out there and *do* the time.

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• derrilex

  February 2012

  Ive been struggling with the milk on my BZ then a change to A2 and now its perfect with no change of technique. Smarter white milk works perfectly aswell. High protein content is what you want. Cost more but you get what you pay for.  Practice heaps too.

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