ESPRESSO MACHINE WATER QUALITY

john · May 2004

Recently, I have, either, had a number of conversations with industry persons or have heard industry persons talk about the quality of the "feed water" going into the espresso machine.
Water quality and the importance of such appears to be grossly misunderstood throughout the industry. Actually to a point of ignorance.
I know of new espresso machines 2-3 years old that basically need to be scrapped because of inadequate filtration.
It certainly is a concern to find out that many equipment suppliers do not understand the importance of the correct filtration system to suit the area where the espresso machine is to be installed. Believe me all areas are different.
For example:
Joe espresso machine company sells a machine to:
Joes cafe on the Gold Coast
Joanes cafe in Townsville
Joeys cafe in Sydney
JoJos cafe back of Bourke, etc, etc
It is recommended to put a filter on the water supply. They all do.
However, for example JoJos (Bourke) is running of 'tank water'. They think the water is sweet and clean and only neeeds a sediment filter!
Right or wrong?
In other scenarios what use is a carbon filter??? Could be useless except for the removal of organics.
Then the other issue is why have a filter system if you don't service it.

OK FORUM Maybe an interesting topic.

Would be interested in any thoughts
JD

john · June 2004

Something wrong when you have to reply to you own post. I started this topic thinking that it might spark a little interest and some debate. It appears obvious that my comments about water quality and espresso machines is misunderstood. The ignorance of this topic will certainly keep giving the service technicans plenty of work. JD

FreshCoffee2 · June 2004

Hi John, ok let's see now. Purely from an espresoo machine traders point of view, we look at basically only one thing and that is whether the water is "hard" or not. If the water is known to be hard (as in many country NSW towns) we supply and fit water softeners with every machine installation. If the water is known not to be hard, we stipulate some kind if "simple" replaceable water filter. That's about it. The unfortunate thing is that human nature takes over after that... a) most operators that we know of never "recharge" their water softeners, except if they have have suffered water problems before and know that they should keep after the softener, and b) most operators that we know of never replace their replaceable water filters, and gawd knows what kind of garbage breeds inside one of these when it is well past it's use by... My technicians and I do not like the small replaceable charcoal filters simply because they are too easy to sabotage by overtightening the brass unions into the ends of the flimsy plastic cartridge, causing the usual water leaks to occur. These water leaks have a habit of happening not when the cartidge is fitted but later, necessitating a revisit and a replacement filter. And ofcourse the water leaks also happen at night and because many cafe's will not listen when told to turn off power and water to their espresso machine every single night, these water leaks can sometimes result in major flooding of plant in shopping centres and very sizeable insurance claims being made against the owners of recalcitrant espresso machines... Our insurance company actually stipulates that every time we sell or rent an espresso machine that requires plumbing, that we supply a standard form that advises the user / purchaser to TURN OFF the water and electricity to the espresso machine at the end of each trading day. So the subject of water and water quality is bigger than at first meets the eye! Cheers, FC.

FreshCoffee2 · October 2004

Thought I would REVISIT this topic in view of the new advertisement just placed in the "for sale" section by a supplier of water filtration equipment. I for one would be interested to know the answers to legitimate questions like: A) why would you fit a system of (replaceable / purchaseable) cartridge filters when all Italian machines come in with "depurators" (rechargeable water softeners that are also a permanent water filter...no need to remember to replace or have to buy a replacement cartridge some time down the track). That is, does the cartridge system do something that the depurator (that is, or should be fitted with the machine), does not?.

Why fit such large filtration systems when the Boe-ma espresso machine company only deems it necessary to supply the small throw away type of activated charcoal filter? Is it to do with ease of replacement of cartridges and or does the large filter do something more (other than last longer before needing to be replaced)? How many punters actually know the diff between "water softening" (to reduce / prevent build up of scale) and "filtration" and would simply buy the cheapest particle filter available? Anyone? Cheers, FC.

Unknown · October 2004

thanks for the topic. I have just moved to melbourne and had a gift of a new expresso machine which is to be plumbed in for home use only. ie 5 or so milk drinks a day. my plumber is here all week fitting dishwasher etc and water feed to machine. what do i fit. ????????????? i read that i should fit a pressure regulater at no more tha 30 psi ie 20-30 psi is this right as i also read eleshwhere thats because its a small ECM commercial machine with rotary pump it should be 40 psi. conflicting views. so im off to bunnings to get a pressure regulator. setting please ??????????? basically im setting up a tee junction like a dishwasher outlet under my sink with the drain also going into a similar dishwasher trap under my sink. Now im in melbourne city and good water (soft hard not sure ))but i know i need filters and dont want scale in my machine or crap so do i fit purifier, softener etc etc... all these parts are from bunnings also being cheap and yes everybody i will change them whenever the intructions tell me. im quite paranoid about it all. can you all advise me off the right thing to do. ?? and for a home machine---should i turn off water tap under sink every night. i dont want too but if its recommended i will. flooding isnt a problem as such as i have a drain under the kitchen floor but will take advice. anymore info required please ask. thanks john fc etc etc best wishes kevin

FreshCoffee2 · October 2004

Kevin, you need a cistern kock (or any isolating stopkock, even a garden tap will do but is much bigger), a 350 kPa water pressure limiting valve (called a "PS-50", your plumber or supplier will know what that means), & appropriate filtration/softener for your area. If you dont turn off the water & power every night you WILL sometime in the next 20 years end up with either a fire, or a flood, or both in your house and potentially lose the house, or your apartment building or the whole street, and you will get sued by everyone that can. My advice, turn off water & power when not at home or you are asleep. If you are at home or awakethen no worries leave it on....and that means off at the powerpoint, not just at the machine. You will also need appropriate fittings to go from one type of thread to another when going from the filter to the inlet pipe of the machine which will most probably be the standard Italian 3/8" female fitting. All the ozzie stuff is 1/2". Regardez, FC.

john · October 2004

Kev What FC has said is a start. However, maybe best to get back to who supplied the machine, they should be able to advise you as to the requirements. When we supply a machine we offer all the necessary information on water quality and for plumbing in when asked. You will note that here is now an Espresso Coffee Water Treatment System in the for sale section of this site. I worked on the developement of this system with Premier Water Systems and believe that this type of system will give maximum protection for your espresso coffee machine. I suggest that you email or call Brad for further information. JD

Unknown · October 2004

thanks MY POST IS SIMILAR TO KEVINS......IM ALSO IN MELBOURNE i too am after this set up jd and fresh coffee .. i was also looking for my home machine set up but found it so will contact you. how can i tell if the pressure is reduced right though..there is no guage....ie to 30 psi what is the right pressure for rotary pump... i have seen other setups with numeric guage..do i need this ??? also where do i get new filters in melbourne when i need them,,,,ie how much and where,,,,and how often,?? thankyou..;will contact people (brad)re this next week to order,, just need qusetions answered.. can i get filters at bunnings like last post said...only for convenience HOW MUCH FOR NEW CARTRIDGES...DO THEY COME IN THIS SET UP ??????? wanted a common set up. thankyou marcd

john · October 2004

Marcd I suggest that you contact Brad as per his post on the For Sale section. Brad is one of the industries water treatment professionals. He can supply a full range of systems and replacement cartridges. JD

FreshCoffee2 · October 2004

Hi Marc, re your questions: ".....how can i tell if the pressure is reduced right though..there is no guage....ie to 30 psi what is the right pressure for rotary pump... i have seen other setups with numeric guage..do i need this..." If you have a semi commmercial or commercial machine requiring plumbing then it's all the same spec (re pressure limiting & filtering) as noted for Kevin above. Try to forget "psi" most of us converted to kPa a long time ago and now have difficulty converting back...hehehe! You need to reduce down to a line (incoming) pressure between say 350 to 500 kpa, we work to 350. The WATER pressure guages (fitted to most but not all machines) measure only 2 things. One is the in line pressure "at rest" (which is the pressure as reduced by the limiting valve e.g. 350kPa / 3.5 bars / 3.5 atmospheres pressure as viewed on whatever is the scale of the guage), and the other is the line pressure of the water while the pump is pumping to make coffee, which will be in the region of 8 to 10 bars / atm. This (the guage) basically tells you whether a) the limiting valve has failed or b) the pump is failing or has failed or c) there is a mains water failure or d) you (or I or someone) forgot to turn the tap on hehe! If you dont have the guage (as in Bo-ema & some other machines), you can ignore what the inline "brewing" pressure is (because you cannot read it on the guage that is not there), and happily go about brewing your espresso dependent only on the other variables that apply for you to mae a good one! In any case if a water pump fails or the mains water has not been turned on, it is quite obvious. ".....also where do i get new filters in melbourne when i need them,,,,ie how much and where,,,,and how often,??....." Dont know Melb, but you will normally buy replacement cartridges from wherever you buy the filter system. I suggest going to a specialist. Hope this helps, FC.

john · October 2004

FC, Kevin, marcd et al I have contacted Brad from Premier Water Systems and he will post some relevant info regarding filtration requirements over the next day or so. It should answer your questions. Find following an extract from a soon to be released publication. The material is copyright and has been reproduced by courtesy of Coffee Training Centre. A bit will be added each day. Water and Espresso Coffee Water is not Water! The water you are using may not be what it seems or what you think it is! Did you know that espresso coffee is approximately 92% water? Therefore, would it not make sense to ensure that the water you are preparing your espresso coffee from, is free from tastes and odours! Using filtered/treated water will enhance the flavour of the espresso coffee by reducing tastes and odours and bringing out coffee nuances that are often masked by these tastes and odours. A properly installed and well maintained water treatment system will not only improve the taste of the espresso coffee, but also will add life to the espresso machine by reducing scale, sediment and other contaminants that accumulate in the boiler and around other parts of the machine that come in contact with the water. The integrity and performance of your espresso coffee machine can be compromised by poor quality feed water. This can lead to undesirable tastes in the espresso coffee and unscheduled maintenance of your equipment. What type of things are we talking about? Sediment, chloramines, hardness, organic tastes and so on. Water is a universal solvent and picks up something from everything it touches. The feed water chemistry can vary significantly from area to area and can have a marked effect on the quality of the finished espresso. City water, town water, tank water, bore water and so on, will vary. They

john · October 2004

PART 2 Minimum Water Treatment Requirements Some common methods of water treatment are: Mechanical Filters: Used to trap sediment and particles such as dirt, rust and sand. Usually used in combination with other types of media, typically as a pre-filter in multi-stage systems. Activated Carbon: The most common method of treatment for the reduction of chlorine, tastes and odours. Water Softeners: Used for the removal of hardness from the water and used when there is a high level of calcium and magnesium compounds in the water. Hardness can be measured. Contact your water treatment specialist. Ultra Violet (UV): Generally used as a disinfection method where there is a suspected bacteria problem. UV systems are generally used as part of a water treatment system. Can be used as part of a system to treat questionable tank water. As a general rule, better filtration performance and less maintenance will be offered by a multiple stage system, that is, a pre-filter followed by a carbon/scale inhibiting filter. Initial installation cost may be slightly higher but over time it

Filterman · October 2004

Hello coffee gurus. Having read the postings of recent days and having placed an advertisement in the Crema For Sale section, I feel I would like to join your forum and inform you

bob · October 2004

Dear filterman. or others ? connecting soon to my machine for plumb in. just bough new house. it has dishwasher drain for dishwasher...is it easy to add a second drain for machine drip tray under sink..i mean can you get a pvc drain with two dishwasher inlets.. ?? im using one for dishwasher. i have a spare ciston valve under my sink. (approved) I will change to a quality valve. I will purchase a dual check valve . my feed to my expresso machine will then be to a dual canister filter system,,,ie carbon then softener. does the dual valve go after the filter set up or before. i assume it goes 1/ water 2/valve..3/dual valve..4/ cartridge ..5/ machine.. if i ask my plumbing shop for a dual valve.(limiter) will they know what im talking about.....ie is there a trade name....how much roughly ?? i live in melbourne city. water quality is hit and miss. normally great but last week it was all cloudy for some reason,..so i guess filters will be a big help. thanks for a chance to read this. i asked my local coffee shop in the city and they serve at least 500 coffees a day and i asked to see their filter set up and no one knew where it was or if it had one. The owner bought the shop fitted out a year ago. i told him you needed to have filters and change them but i got the feeling he thought i was being a pain in the bum, and was going to cost him money. in other words could i get lost. He has a lovely gaggia machine that looks big and expensive but he said the coffee supplier gives it to him so he didnt care if it blew up due to calcium etc as a new one would be delivered that day. that was the deal for ordering so many kilos of beans a week. So i now drink elsewhere as i can only assume the filter i found underneath the cabinet eventually hasnt been changed in a minimum of one year probably 3-4. thanks filterman,jd fc all us coffee home users at least now have no excuse for not setting up right at home. one last question filterman, like a previous post. How much are spare cartridges for your system, ?? Will i be able to get spares in 5 years ?? ie is this a standard set up ?? I am in melbourne and it may be a hassle to order via sydney in the future for cartridges, i think i may order initial system off you and then replace locally. is that possible. ?? how often would i change them . i am a small coffee user..between 1-10 coffees and mild drinks a day. ??? I assume your dual cartrdge system is... 1 cartridge for scale..1 for germs bugs etc. is this right ??? cheers bob

FreshCoffee2 · October 2004

Good to see a water specialist coming on board. The quality of the water (in all walks of life not just coffee) is becoming ever more important. Cheers, FC.

john · October 2004

FC I agree, I am glad that Brad has offered to assemble some systems for the commercial and domestic espresso operators. Bob I was interested to read your bit about the Gaggia, this attitude is so typical of the "FREEBIE" market. I know of a LOAN machine that was almost stuffed after only two years because of the lack of proper filtration. It so happens that recomendations were made to the operator about 12 months before the machine gave up. It was clagged up with scale, sediment etc. The operator let the filtration recommendations slide and in the end the machine owner had to do a rebuild. I have a single group commercial that was in use every day for about 8 years, a recent inspection of the some of the components showed that the valves etc were almost like new. During that time it was served by either a water softener or a scale inhibiting cartridge. JD

john · October 2004

PART 3 on Water and Espresso Machines Water Hardness: In areas where the water supply is very hard due to dissolved calcium and magnesium compounds, it would be advisable to install a water softener at the water supply point of entry of the establishment. This would give the added advantage of protecting all equipment and appliances connected to the water supply, for example, espresso machine, ice machine, post mix, hot water system and dishwasher. It may be necessary to also fit a sediment filter before the softener to protect it from contamination and from blocking the injectors. A carbon filter should then be installed before the espresso machine, post mix and ice maker to remove objectionable tastes and odours. A typical water softener uses

Unknown · October 2004

In reply to Bob and others re water quality too. I have a carbon filter on my machine thats all. I think I need a calcium filter to get rid of build ups etc. Havent used the machine much yet as a plumb in so no damage should be done. about 100 cups.... Reece plumbing locally seem to have it all (fittings)) so if not will contact the chap in the sale section. I too asked after reading this thread on cafes and coffee and got similar response to BOB. No we dont change our filter. Its "not our machine" its supplies by coffee supplier and "we dont really give a toss". In other words but out. And im being nice to the language used. They didnt care and the lady running the cafe honestly is older and wouldnt have a clue re filters and actually didnt konw what i was talking about. She had the same attitude, she told me that suppliers are always offering her umbrellas, chairs cups, sugar.... "New Machine" to change to their coffee so she didnt care about the machine so long as it would keep making 3 dollar coffees. I think its up to the suppliers to write in the contract you must filter and change the filters reguarly. BUT im sure like this owner told me....she didnt care and could have a new machine and extra there in the morning. Hope that sheds some light on what must be a sad attitude by machine shop owners/leases A SIDETRACK STORY I once had a coffee in an old coffee shop that smelt of chlorine. The greek guying running it nearly belted me when i said something was wrong with the water. He said he had the machine for over ten years and it was a FAEMA and the best and if I didnt like it too f..... off. I DID Anyway re machines in cafes MY ONLY CONCERN.. WHO PAYS TO FIX OR SUPPLY THESE MACHINES. SOMEONE MUST PAY OR IS EVERYBODY ON A GRAVY TRAIN AND MAKING MONEY. best wishes peter

john · October 2004

Peter I am not sure what you mean by a calcium filter???? Maybe go back and read the earlier bits posted on Water and Espresso Coffee. Unfortunately most (99.999999%) of the employees at the local plumbing store would not have a clue as what type of filtration system to use on an espresso machine. From what I see most cafes use a carbon filter. This will do nothing for any scale reduction. Refer previous articles. Also most of the filters out there are not serviced at the proper intervals. JD

Unknown · October 2004

I only have carbon filter. My mistake. I understand I need a sediment filter to actually save my machine insides. A question that someone may help with...re other posts from other does the pressure limiter come from the tap or after the filters ?? cheers peter

Unknown · October 2004

After the tap, & before anything else. Mal.

Filterman · October 2004

Bob In answer to your questions: Order of installation; control valve, pressure limiting/dual check valve, filter system and finally the machine. The filters we use are specifically manufactured for espresso machines. We stock a range of standard systems or we can design a system to suit most applications. Our systems come complete with necessary valves and standard fittings. Connection hoses come in various lengths (from 300 mm to 1.5 m) and are an optional extra. All our systems come complete with a set of installation instructions. Installation should be carried out by a licensed plumber. All systems are recommended for use on municipally treated water supplies. Although based in Sydney we ship nationally and can supply your cartridges on an ongoing basis. As part of our service we offer free postage on all orders over $50 and we send all our customers a reminder notice (with order form) when it is time to change the cartridges. Cartridge life varies. In a typical domestic system the cartridges should be replaced every 6 to 12 months depending on the type of cartridges used. In commercial use, filters may require more frequent changing depending on a number of variables eg quality of local water and volume of water used. The typical twin system is designed to reduce sediment, chlorine, tastes, odours and scale. Trust that this answers some of your questions. Filterman

Unknown · October 2004

Hi All I just came across this topic. I have had a home machine plumbed in for about 2 years(millenium) . I only have a sediment filter on line, i change the cartridge about every six months. Should I add a parasite filter. Do people think my machine has at least keep the scale, rust out which i was initially warned about. Clogging the boiler and lines etc. lexus

Gonzo · October 2004

You can buy small replaceable in line filters that also inhibit the build up of scale. They come in diff sizes and with differing capacity for filtering & inhibiting. If your machine doesn't have much throughput of water in domestic use, and is not on all the time (the heat brings the scale out of solution to form that hard crust in the boiler & lines) that should do. Ask you local filter shop for this, specific to the water in your area. Unless you are in an area known to be a very bad area for water hardness, don't worry, your machine is not going to clog up, implode and then disintegrate into a million pieces through the build up of scale, particularly if you havent suffered service problems due to this in the 2 years you've already had the machine. Just get yourself a good filter/inhibitor for the area, change regularly, and you'll be fine. G. not into undue scare mongering.

Unknown · November 2004

Just reading forum on website. I must have missed a wave of water quality years. I thought my machine which has been plugged in for a few years was great. Old giotto. It was already plumbed from previous owner so I just put it into my kitchen and ran a water line and pressure reducer to it on the recomendation of previous owner.. that was ages ago. Now are people bewing over cautious or really fanatical or am I just slack re quality of water and fittings..? I bought the water line to my machine from bunnings,, made of nylon clear tubing (8mm) for about 90 cents a metre. The pressure reducer was a 500 kpa for about 20 bucks as well. I put a small hose clamp onto the water line to make sure it didnt pop of and flood me. It runs great, doesnt leak, and tastes great. Now I feel worried re everything. Is my machine now needing a cleanout as I didnt have filter. Should my water line be better quality or should I just change the lines every few years. thanks TED 5 capps a day man.

Unknown · November 2004

I would be VERY worried by possibility of un-reinforced line blowing and flooding my house. Get rid of clear un-reinforced plastic tubing ASAP & replace with a REINFORCED water hose either plastic, or stainless steel braided, or "plastic" hydraulic line, capable of handling the pressure. Fit a simple water filter as described 2 posts up. After which, stop worrying & enjoy. Mal. The Real Koffee Politik.

john · November 2004

G Out of interest, can you clarify your last bit about "not into undue scare mongering" JD

Brett H · November 2011

I hate starting new topics because I worry that pertinent and useful information is often already here. I have a new line of enquiry re this old thread. I have a cheap under-sink filtration system that takes Stefani cartridges: http://www.goodsgalaxy.com.au/stefani-full-flow-undersink-water-filtration-system What filter system/cartridge replacement is this and can I get a cartridge that is more suited to coffee machines and scale inhibition. The reason I ask is that the cartridge is coming up for replacement again. Naturally I rather replace a cartridge than rip out the existing plumbing for something suitable. Thanks in advance.

Muscles · April 2012

Just wondering if anyone uses countertop single or dual stage filters? Any recommendations on systems/cartridges? I am currently using a Sunbeam chiller that takes Brita Maxtra cartridges and looking for one for use with appliances, not chilled for drinking.

Jonty · April 2012

Hi Muscles I am using a Digipure900s from fridge filters. I can tell you that my local water has a hardness of 60ppm and after filtration comes out at zero. I have the luxury of using two laboratories to test my water and it was confirmed at both - both free testing as I have contacts (which makes life easy). I did however buy a jar of 50 test strips from fridge filters and for the life of me they expire on 8/12. I am not impressed with such a short expiry date and need to lodge a complaint. http://fridgefilters.com.au/Countertop-System-with-Softener/

Lwowiak · April 2012

Hi Brett, Contact this place, they are based on the gold coast. Straight forward information that is relevant to QLD. http://www.gundrilltrading.com.au/index.html They sell a whole range of filters, and can also suggest a cheaper alternative to many original filters. I purchased my setup from there, as well as an inline magnetic scale inhibitor. The sediment and carbon filters retail for under $30, for both. Change them every 12 months. Works well and is a lot cheaper than all in one filters that are imported and cost $50+.

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