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Amount vs quality

shape_shiftershape_shifter
edited January 1970 in How to improve your coffee
This is something I've been thinking about for a while but only recently have done the experiment to prove it to myself.

Many many times I see people saying to newbies "throw away the single basket", what I want to know is why, why are so many many people saying the same thing?

My experiment, thanks to AM and his handles ;D

Early in my coffee experience I bought the Presso, the standard amount I use in it is 14 grams, ground finely, we have always enjoyed what has come out of it, I would say of the sinks shots in comparison to the BES900 I have had at least 50% more sink shots through the BES900 than the Presso.

While I was waiting for my lovely lovely handles :thumb: to arrive I was using the Presso again and we enjoyed every single coffee we had out of it.  Of course this got me thinking that maybe the taste problems I've been having with the BES900 hasn't been the beans or the settings but in fact the amount!!!

As soon as the handles arrived I thought "I'm going to try this", I got out the single, whacked in 14 grams of coffee and pulled the shot.  What do you know, great coffee the first time and I have to say this, almost every time.

The amounts I use, 14 grams of beans, measured before grinding, producing 40mls of espresso, somewhere between 80 to 100mls of milk.  To me this is producing the best coffee for our tastes.

Do people truly believe that a double basket, or more, is the only way to get great coffee?
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Comments

  • Koffee_KosmoKoffee_Kosmo
    I always test my technique with a single basket My single basket is 9 grams SS, I was told that - 14 grams is actually the smallest double basket available Not sure if this is correct but I tend to think it is KK
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  • UNMUNM
    Yep, single basket produces crap coffee most of the time, double produces good most of the time (for me). I found with a single that it was really hard in the Gaggia to avoid channeling and the results were pretty disappointing. Sure it was technique and I am sure with practice I could make good coffee, but the technique for the baskets IS different and changing is always harder than remaining with one consistent routine. I usually dose around 16.5-17g in my 14g double but it varies depending on beans. My single can hold around 8.5 if up dosed to the limit. Add to that the fact I like a double shot anyway,  for me it was a no brainer. YMMV
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  • shape_shiftershape_shifter
    Interesting that the Breville single takes 14 grams and the double takes 19 grams (for my tastes). So in actual fact I am using a double and the double is a triple?
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  • RichardMRichardM
    Theoretically, flow rate through a single should be half that of a double due to to the shape and holes, thus a 14g double should produce 60mL/30sec and a 14g single should produce 30mL/30sec (not a rule, just a guideline, of course).  To be getting 40mL out of a single basket, you must be grinding coarser - this might be having more effect than anything else - so might not be coffee quantity at all, but other factors at play. Of course, you could try a 14g Synesso double basket (what I use) or a 15g VST Double to compare. Perhaps breville make a larger basket to make up for the stale flavourless coffee a lot of people use?
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  • shape_shiftershape_shifter
    I'm going to buy the 15 gram ridgeless VST with the Pullman tamper bottom. I seriously can't grind any finer, I just choke the machine, with my week old beans I had to grind coarser again, I seriously don't know, I figure if we like it I can't be too far off.
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  • UNMUNM
    Ok, did a bit of checking with some stale grounds I keep lying around for seasoning shots. Single basket - can squeeze in 13g at a push, but would almost certainly foul the shower screen of the gaggia. That 8g comment earlier is out by quite a margin. Apologies for misleading you. Double, can get 19g maybe 19.5g at a push - scales not 100% accurate. these are industry standard baskets, nothing special so highly likely to be nominal 7/14g. Will weigh the morning shot of bukit marante and elk hill just to see how much I am using as everything else posted previously is from memory (I use Weiss Distribution and go by volume rather than weight as a rule).
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  • FreshCoffee2FreshCoffee2
    I really think it comes down to whatever you get used to with the proviso, that there has to be some kind of standard to start with. If you want to deviate from that fine, but you have to know the rules before you can break them. For me the standard is the regular "export" double filter as fitted to commercial esp machines coming into this country. The double holds somewhere between 18 and 20 grams depending on the design of the group on any particular brand machine. That means you are brewing two singles each with sokmewhere between 9 to 10 grams coffee in, for our standard 30ml espresso. Notwithstanding the difference in design between the single and double filters, if you use the corresponding single filter it doesnt hold 9 to 10 grams, but  12 grams or so (ie it is NOT half of a double). It therefore results in a coffee that has a different character to singles made with the double filter. And the single requires a different grind setting to the double, to get the same pour. Ergo you cant use singles and doubles together without going crazy adjusting the grind when you change from one to the other.....so you either use the double all the time, or the single all the time because otherwise its just too much trouble. Also of course, the nomenclature used by many to describe a particular filter does not always reflect the actual capacity of that filter (as noted above by UNM) Eg the regular double "export" filter I referred to above holds between 18 to 20 grams, but is often enough referred to as a "15 gram filter" in various spare parts listings. What does that mean?????????? Can make it hard to order filters thats for sure. And if you only put 15 grams coffee in that filter the espresso principle doesnt work...the brew water just blows the grinds out of the way in the space in the underfilled filter, and the resulting coffee comes out like dishwater. For espresso to work properly, no matter what size filter you use, it must be full of grinds (where full doesnt mean tamped full to the top of the rim obviously). And as you know, you can slow down the rate of pour for an underfilled filter by grinding finer, but that gives you a completely different character in the coffee than a correctly filled filter using correctly ground fines for the correct pour.  Try it both ways for a similar rate of pour, and you will see the difference. Anyway, once you get your brain around what is standard and can use and appreciate that, you can choose whatever weapon you like and go with it if that is what you like. Hope that helps. Attilio, very first Crema site sponsor
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  • UNMUNM
    Bearing in mind what attilio said. First shot: Elk hill, 19g coffee, 24sec, 56g double. Should have used a smidge more coffee or ground finer. Second shot: colombia excelso (changed my mind) 18g/30sec/47g. Same grind for both, would normally loosen grind for the excelso, but wanted a tight shot. Edit: worth also noting, the excelso  was dosed with marginally MORE volume in the basket but, after tamping, left more clearance so could easily have been updosed to slow the shot further.
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  • JontyJonty
    Okay guys, seriously the L plates are on...... :)  5yrs of Breville days do not count!! I've chewed close to 600g of suuweet today playing with electronic timing on the M4D and the grind setting. Here is were I am at: 18.8g of coffee for a double Synesso Basket 27sec for 30ml Then I decided to weight the shot glasses (b/c I saw UNM weights) and now is the internet forums doing my head in? I got a total weight of 37g (I am assuming here) that 30ml is when the crema hits the mark  ::) I then banged the naked PF on and visually it looked as good as any you tube stuff I have seen  ;)  No squirts, pulled to the centre for a great double in an ACF 280ml tulip. Fire away, with suggestions and FC feel free to go the whole hog as I need the education. Jonty
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  • MusclesMuscles
    on 1333952676:
    Then I decided to weight the shot glasses (b/c I saw UNM weights) and now is the internet forums doing my head in? I got a total weight of 37g (I am assuming here) that 30ml is when the crema hits the mark  ::) I then banged the naked PF on and visually it looked as good as any you tube stuff I have seen  ;)  No squirts, pulled to the centre for a great double in an ACF 280ml tulip.
    And how did these two taste? I am a believer in weighing what goes in the grinder to keep my dose consistent but I don't bother weighing the output. I pull the shot until it blondes or stop sooner if needed...
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  • FreshCoffee2FreshCoffee2
    on 1333952676:
    ...........No squirts, pulled to the centre for a great double in an ACF 280ml tulip.......
    Yes, internet forums are doing your head in  hehehe ;D By the way you did mean a 180ml tulip rather than a 280? M.....blonding doesnt worry me in the least and I will happily pour through it a little if I am close to my desired volume, as long as it is not adversely affecting the brew (which I know with my own coffees as a result of cupping). Depends on the coffee. If blonding is such that it adversely affects my espresso, which is invariably a 25 to 30 ml extraction, I will go chasing the cause and rectify that rather than cut short my brews. I dose by volume not weight....life's too short and my profession is already complicated enough  ;)
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  • MusclesMuscles
    on 1333972167:
    M.....blonding doesnt worry me in the least and I will happily pour through it a little if I am close to my desired volume, as long as it is not adversely affecting the brew (which I know with my own coffees as a result of cupping). Depends on the coffee. If blonding is such that it adversely affects my espresso, which is invariably a 25 to 30 ml extraction, I will go chasing the cause and rectify that rather than cut short my brews. I dose by volume not weight....life's too short and my profession is already complicated enough  ;)
    Not cutting my brews short at all so no need to hunt for a prob... With the Breville dual boiler I dose 20-21g in the VST basket and easily extract 60-70ml+ without any blonding at all. Depending on who the drink is for ie for the wife I stop it around 50ml and for me I will continue the shot until it blondes then top off with hot water for my long blacks which I have become fond of recently. With the Cremina, at present I only have the stock 7g basket for now and have been putting 9g in it with great results but I do stop when blonding oocurs at around 27-30mls, yes I could keep pulling the lever until I get 50ml but don't like the taste so I stop when I see blonding.
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