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test and tag equipment recommendations

UNMUNM
edited January 1970 in Off-topic
I am considering getting accredited to do test and tag of electrical appliances.

Anyone got recommendations of portable appliance testers?
Any good software for managing ongoing testing schedules?

I am looking at one in particular but want to see if the good folks here have any recommendations or horror  stories.

Auto logging of test results would be good.
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Comments

  • Koffee_KosmoKoffee_Kosmo
    I'm most Australian states to gain a limited electrical license for Test & Tag One needs to be trained and pass the Test & Tag certificate under the rules in ones state or territory and also pass a Cert 4 Business diploma KK
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  • derrilexderrilex
    Rules, rules, rules, Notes, notes, notes  :rofl:
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  • UNMUNM
    costs about $300 for a one day course to be defined as 'a competent person'. Seems to be same in both VIC and SA. Not sure about elsewhere. Places are offering to tag equipment for under $3.50 per item these days, so it comes down to speed of operation, or value add by minimising disruption in the workplace. Either way, you don't want to be reading results and typing them into a database/spreadsheet (prone to error if manual step). Seaward look quite good for the price. KK - what do you guys use? AM, while your post is interesting (and a couple of items that are food for thought), it misses the point somewhat. Test and Tag is not about ensuring appliances are safe, or that the workplace is safe.  AS/NZS3760 is only one small component in the overall picture. We all know that equipment can and does break in between dates of testing and  lots of equipment will test  fine even with operating faults evident (reverse can also be true). AFAIK it is  not currently required for appliances to be regularly tagged. despite what many are led to believe. Nobody charging money for it wants to discourage the practice. As I understand it the legal obligation is for employers to provide a safe workplace.
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  • Koffee_KosmoKoffee_Kosmo
    On my last check of equipment we use, this is the kit - DeltaPAT 3309 Tradie Kit @ about $1500 -- http://www.portableappliancetesters.com.au/testers/metrel/delta3309tradiekit These are our prices ect -  http://www.expresstestandtag.com.au/ KK
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  • derrilexderrilex
    More important than test and tag on any job site is testing the RCD. I had my sparky here the other day doing my offpeak wiring and he was telling me of a spate of RCD's that dont trip at the required milliamps. A young fella on a Government (union)site got booted and all hell broke loose. Moral of the storey, get ya sparky to test the RCD's next time he is out. Still not a perfect foolproof solution but normally adequate protection provided DIY wiring hasn't thrown a spanner in the works somewhere
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  • UNMUNM
    on 1358761537:
    On my last check of equipment we use, this is the kit - DeltaPAT 3309 Tradie Kit @ about $1500 -- http://www.portableappliancetesters.com.au/testers/metrel/delta3309tradiekit These are our prices ect -  http://www.expresstestandtag.com.au/ KK
    Your front page incorrectly states 'Its the law' to have equipment tested and tagged. Naughty!
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  • Koffee_KosmoKoffee_Kosmo
    on 1358763815:
    Your front page incorrectly states 'Its the law' to have equipment tested and tagged. Naughty!
    It's a fairly good description and a correct statement as per the rules Equipment for a contractor as in my cleaning business = Vacuum cleaners, polishers, auto scrubbers ect It says this - IT'S THE LAW... Is your business complying? As prescribed by the Occupational Safety and Health Regulations , the person having control of a workplace or access to that workplace, i.e. employer, self-employed person, main contractor, must ensure that all plug-in electrical equipment and residual current devices (RCDs) at the workplace are safe and appropriately inspected, tested and tagged and by a competent and trained person. KK
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  • UNMUNM
    on 1358764587:
    It's a fairly good description and a correct statement as per the rules Equipment for a contractor as in my cleaning business = Vacuum cleaners, polishers, auto scrubbers ect It says this - IT'S THE LAW... Is your business complying? As prescribed by the Occupational Safety and Health Regulations , the person having control of a workplace or access to that workplace, i.e. employer, self-employed person, main contractor, must ensure that all plug-in electrical equipment and residual current devices (RCDs) at the workplace are safe and appropriately inspected, tested and tagged and by a competent and trained person. KK
    And theriein lies the problem. Nothing in the law says items need to be tagged (or tested unless in a hostile environment IIRC). Unless we are reading different legislation of course. Point me at a legal document, and I will happily eat my words, until then: OHS Regulation 2001 (as amended in 2006) Clauses 64 & 65: Require electrical equipment - used in construction work or used at a place of work where affected by a hostile operating environment to be regularly inspected, tested and maintained by a competent person
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  • Ol GrumpyOl Grumpy
    FWIW, Qld Master Builders runs a 1 day training course for becoming a test/tag competent person. This only allows you to test/tag personal and employers gear. It absolutely excludes working for 'others'- that's a whole other ball game. I've always thought I should do it... But so far a friendly sparky has always (note to AM; Don't read this!) had a few 'timely tags' :wink
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  • derrilexderrilex
    Thats a bugger AM. I have a van full that needs T&T. Could have made a afternoon of it - including  my "hybrid" lead.  :D
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  • UNMUNM
    on 1358769087:
    All covered in attachment in my post, Table 4. 
    Missed that post last night.  A few things I disagree with though. Bear in mind part of my job for many years was negotiating and picking holes in previously negotiated legal documents and prior to that I was also involved in defining standards for communication and testing protocols. It is important to remember that standards are not legal documents. Legislation sometimes refers to standards and requires compliance, though not always.
    on 1358769087:
    As per the clause you highlighted, it states at the outset that ALL will be inspected and tested....  64  Electricity
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  • UNMUNM
    on 1358809309:
    Access to Standards is Via Subscription.. Some can be had via file sharing apps, but often out of date and not the one you need. As I recall, they send via an encrypted pdf  that allows the purchaser to PRINT and then the PDF becomes unusable/readable. I once got them directly and would remove the protection, but these days the Standards/Quality people get them print them and then del the file. As to what I would recommend; again what is your scope of work..  Remember RCD's and Earth leakage need different test equipment as well. As a base level a PAT 2000i , Manual  Insulation tester  (100V to 1000V ), 3.5 digit DVM True RMS, RCD Testers - Specialised Medical testers for  Medical devices (Earth leakage - very low current), Test fingers etc etc. I will contact my old staff and see what they are using today. 
    Actually one thing that really P's me off is standards everyone is expected to conform to, or directly affected by, that are only available to purchase. Australia is bad for this, but not by any means unique.  More and more, there are excerpts and misquotes available for free, but the original document is sometimes only available to a select few. As to scope of work, plan is to do the one day course and buy a relatively entry level tester that can be used for such things as grooming clippers, dryers and RCDs. IF there is sufficient money to be had, then expand to do private and micro business testing of appliances. No repair. No mission critical equipment. No large scale facilities. I do not intend to compete with the real low level cost-cutters as that affects ability to deliver quality service. I can't see how anyone can make money at $2.50 a tag. Plenty people will pay a premium for convenience and someone that listens to their requirements. As I have experience in the pet care industry, it makes sense to initially target fellow franchisees that have recently been told they must get all equipment tagged and potentially other local pet stores and grooming parlours. If viable, I would then deliver advice on general risk management, but would need to develop additional skills and templates if I was to charge for advice. Even though I can teach myself to use an appliance tester, and quite possibly justify my competence, it is worth the small expense for the cost and potential benefit of a one day course. I imagine a lot of the material would be boring and trivial as part of the target audience are ignorant of electricity and testing protocols. Even if one or two items came up and they supplied a copy AS/NZS3760, it would be worth it., to avoid any potential issues later. And incidentally, electrical safety is not really that big a deal in my environment - I frequently have 50KG+ dogs with big/sharp teeth and that is a significantly greater risk. Test and tag is a very  minor part of the picture, but low entry cost to set up and then get someone else to cover my costs by using the equipment to test other peoples appliances
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  • UNMUNM
    Completed training today. The bunch doing the training had a couple of testers and the Metrel delta PAT 3309 seems far and away  the best under $2000. Ability to add a label printer and no need for isolation transformer count  in its favour too.
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  • Koffee_KosmoKoffee_Kosmo
    on 1361862438:
    Completed training today. The bunch doing the training had a couple of testers and the Metrel delta PAT 3309 seems far and away  the best under $2000. Ability to add a label printer and no need for isolation transformer count  in its favour too.
    The Metrel Delta 3309 is the tester unit we use Apart from being an all rounder I have been told that its also robust Congrats on finishing your course KK
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  • UNMUNM
    on 1361871436:
    The Metrel Delta 3309 is the tester unit we use Apart from being an all rounder I have been told that its also robust
    Yep - you said earlier. One of the reasons I looked at it. Basically, someone else will come out with better, but for now it is the one to beat on price/performance at the low end (according to several different places). It is not the best under all circumstances - if I was to do this full time with regular repeat business, would certainly look at something more expensive.  Ongoing testing for a large number of items means the more expensive units  save time and pay for themselves quickly. Apparently the high end Metrel is also pretty good at around $4K or $8K with printer, scanner and s/w.
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  • derrilexderrilex
    Thats a lot of tags to break even
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  • Ol GrumpyOl Grumpy
    @unm +kudos For finishing the course... On another note I have a 50 odd kilo Akita Inu c/w obligatory oversize canines and the  infamous Akita 'death stare'... It used to take me two weekends to strip his coat (long coat- fluffy) each summer but the last couple of years the vet has given me a couple of  tablets to 'calm' him down while the dog clipper gives him a number two all over.... Gotta love those tablets... I just sit in the corner all dozey with a stupid grin on my face, calm as a cucumber while Sarge (dog) does his best impression of rolling thunder and tries to figure how to get his fangs through the muzzle... Phew! That's tough work right there.... Note to self- ask for extra tablet (for dog) next year....
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  • UNMUNM
    on 1361878564:
    Thats a lot of tags to break even
    Not  really, even at only  $5 per test/tag (I plan on getting at least that) it is only 560 tags worth (diff in cost between the two testers), which can be done in a couple of days. Consumables are cheaper too. In  your line of work, I would be surprised if  your tools were less than $8k. A lot of timber cuts to break even. Bet you cut plenty wood though. Having said that, I have intention of buying the high end tester right now as the business is not yet there to justify it.
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  • Ol GrumpyOl Grumpy
    I'm feeling especially generous today... I'd like to share with you guys the 8th wonder of the world... "Forced Continuity"... This my friends will make your business go from clunker to Formula 1 Supercar... Forget $? Per tag - or $? Per dog wash... that's for amateurs... You need to develop a business model that has an ongoing monthly 'Membership' fee... And get that signed up on an ongoing credit card authority... Whilst we all mourn the loss of Bris-connections... If only for a second.... Wouldn't you like to be the Gate Keeper? The one collecting the toll every time someone passes? The model wasn't flawed- the numbers were flawed... I could write a book, perhaps I should, but in the meantime I'll share it with you lot... The problem with free information is that well, people value it at 'nothing'.... Which is why I don't usually bother... But this little post right here is more than a 'game-changer' ... it is truly a 'life-changer'... IF one of you actually applies and uses it.... It is the closest thing you can get to legally printing money....
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  • UNMUNM
    Had a very interesting time last night reading AS/NZS 3760 Need to re-read to ensure I didn't misinterpret, but couldn't see any requirement for test frequency or maintaining records of tests carried out. I now need three or four other  standards that will no doubt each in turn  refer me to another three or four. What fun! Probably more important is to review VIC  legislation.
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  • derrilexderrilex
    Yep, you're on the roundabout now. One sure way to drive yourself insane
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  • UNMUNM
    glad you came back with a response AM. I suspect we are in agreement overall, but some explanations are always good. I should point out that, while I can stir at times, it is not to offend or upset, but to keep active discussion going in order that I learn more and test my assumptions. Hopefully others also learn stuff and enjoy the discussion. This thread is drifting a bit off the original topic, but so be it. Any road the point about legislation (as you  correctly state) is it can demand more (legislation rarely if ever makes requests). For this reason I need to familiarise myself better with appropriate state and federal legislation applicable to this area. 2.1 clearly states intervals may be varied by a responsible person based on a risk assessment table 4 title is equally clearly labelled 'Indicative testing and inspection intervals for electrical equipment' Further down clause 2.1 we have further confirmation the table is NOT fixed: 'To allow the flexibility to devise a customized solution for particular circumstances, organizations with sufficient expertise and resource may substitute other periods than those indicated in Table 4, after conducting a documented risk assessment, undertaken in accordance with the process specified in AS/NZS ISO 31000, and taking into consideration any relevant legislative requirements or guidelines. The person teaching my course did mention variations to testing schedules and made it clear that a copy of the risk assessment should be taken by the tester or, failing that, a written statement from the responsible person. Clause 2.5.2 states 'Where records are kept, they should be retained for 7 years, or such period as required by the relevant regulator.' So basically whether records are kept or not, is outside the scope of the standard. 2.5.1 does specify what records to keep, if records are kept at all.  A bit odd that one, but probably to allow for one or more states/territories NOT requiring records at the time the standard was finalised, when everyone else was in agreement. So yes, back to the other standards and legislation to dig out. The point being that if someone wants me to test and tag their site, I would be wise to  RECOMMEND the periods in table 4 in the absence of further guidance, but absolutely MUST request a copy of any and all documented risk assessments they have on file so as to comply with their requirements. I also note that there is no requirement in the standard for the competent person to hold a qualification, but there are guidelines for the responsible person to determine the testers competence. This gets back to another important aspect of the standard - the person testing and tagging is NOT RESPONSIBLE for safety in the workplace, unless of course they are also the responsible person. Asking others to carry out one aspect of safety does not relieve someone of their overall duty of care, especially to ensure those they engage are competent, regardless of what certificates they may hold. Those implementing test/tag programs would be wise to bear this in mind and ask a few simple questions of the supposedly 'competent' persons.
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