Cafe culture...

admin · February 2013

Ok this raises some pretty interesting questions [breastfeeding in cafes], particularly in the light of the David Koch from Channel 7 issue a couple of weeks ago: http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/cafe-owner-asks-mother-to-call-off-mob-after-breastfeeding-backlash-20130227-2f5zv.html

Would be interested in some cafe-owners' perspectives as well, if poss.

A

Kelsey · February 2013

I have pretty strong opinions about this. We live in a modern society that has suddenly developed incredible and unwarranted prudishness in addition to a 'me first, me only' self-centeredness that completely ignores actual needs. There's nothing sexual about breast feeding. It's a basic human need - which is why discriminating against it is illegal. You hear the argument that they could just go somewhere else when their baby's hungry or that they could do so in the bathroom. Or you hear that they could just feed their kids from a bottle. The is utter, utter horsecrap, usually from people who don't have children or never breastfed. The health benefits to breast milk alone are enormous - while I'd never castigate anyone for choosing to bottle feed, if you've ever complained about the high prices of health insurance, you should be a fan of breast feeding. If you're out and about with a baby for longer than 90 mins it WILL need a feed. So what do these people want? Mothers to stay squirreled away at home until all their bubs are out of breast feeding age? To have to sequester themselves away in stinky toilets? For what? To save the delicate sensibilities of over sensitive prudes, who could just... Look away. I've never seen a breast feeding mother flaunt her boobs. Most carry around a shawl and nearly all wear easy-access clothes that allow for absolute minimum exposure time. Unless you're watching like a hawk for your opportunity to get indignant, then your chance of seeing anything more than a bit of cleavage or sideboob is pretty remote. You'd see more just wandering around Bondi in summer - and that's before you hit the beach. I'm sorry if my opinions offend, but I care enormously for the health and well being of my wife and children. It seems ridiculous to me that this is even considered a valid position worthy of debate.

derrilex · February 2013

I'm totally with you Kelsey. I can't think of anywhere or anytime that would be inappropriate to breast feed. Maybe whilst driving or been driven :D

RichardM · February 2013

I have NOTHING against breastfeeding. I also have nothing against topless sunbathing, nude beaches etc. In a progressive society that, in general, has become more liberal in views, we have gone backwards in terms of social liberation, and noone can really say why - or maybe it is just that now we are talking about it due to the ability to communicate so easily now - not sure. Strange thing is, my wife has a thing against breastfeeding in public (yet her mother is a nurse). I can't work out why beyond "I just don't like seeing it". I think this is more a reflection of society views on body image, and covering up (possibly in conjunction with a very recent fear of sunbathing due to cancer etc, maybe people are now growing up not seeing people topless, so don't like the idea now, as they see breasts as something that should be covered up).

ringo · February 2013

I don't see the problem with it and how it gets to the point in these cafes where they ask them to leave. It's not like the mother is walking around with her tits out in the cafe.

FreshCoffee2 · February 2013

Speaking for my wife as well as for myself (we own and run the in house cafe in our roasterie), we have no problem with breast feeding mothers. The question is....why would ya...has our society gone backwards while we werent looking? That said, I wonder what we are not being told in this story, or what has been twisted for sensationalism....you know, the usual in our manipulated media scene (only tell em what you want them to know to suit your own purposes...). Forever the conspiracy theorist.

Kelsey · February 2013

I'm with you on that score A. This reeks of cheap journalism. "You know what's a hot button topic at the moment...."

UNM · February 2013

I thought the SMH article was remarkably balanced and informative. The cafe owner comes across better than I expected and it does raise some valid issues. We all know there are at LEAST two sides to every story and understanding others viewpoints is rarely harmful even if we don't agree with them. I do think that expecting the mother to somehow stop the cyber bullying is naive at best. Once something like this gets started many people stop thinking and join in the lynch mob. The story now has a life of its own and will run its course. If someone in a cafe complains about another patrons behaviour, the complaint needs to be addressed and the person being complained about (in this case the breastfeeding mother) should normally be informed a complaint was made. The owner clearly didn't handle things as well as they should. I would love to know the conversations between owner and people that complained.

Kelsey · February 2013

I don't know about that UNM. If someone was sitting around being an obnoxious loudmouth, then sure, let them know that there's been a complaint. But with a breast feeding mother, what purpose can it serve? To make her stop? To make her feel more uncomfortable than she already does? To make her 'aware'? Aware of what? That there are eyes on her boobs? Aware that on some level the cafe owner wants her to leave so she doesn't have to deal with it, but isn't allowed to say so? Nope. The cafe owner should have nothing to say to the mother on this matter. The only person that needs anything said to them is the original complainant. And I would have some choice words for them if they tried it on my wife.

hiphipharar · February 2013

I agree with UNM. I think we need to be careful of applying our own standards to these situations. I'm not sure about the cheap journalism claim but as there was a similar issue that arose from comments on the Channel 7 Morning Show recently, it is certainly topical and the press are trying to milk <ahem> the issue as much as they can. I hate the 'mob mentality' that erupts around it more than any 'prudish' objection to breastfeeding. To me, there is nothing more natural than breast feeding a baby. To others, it can cause them discomfort at least and, to some cultures, bare breasts and nipples are offensive. As much as I feel that those who are offended should learn to get over it, I also have to agree that breastfeeding women show a bit of discretion in public. While they don't have to look, if the woman is sitting in line of sight, it may be hard for them not to notice and I guess they also have a right to dine in comfort.

Kelsey · February 2013

The "Kochie Incident" I think has simply sparked more me-too style cheap news pieces, but it is a legitimate and topical topic. Here's the thing tho - I've never seen a breastfeeding woman who was anything other than discreet. While I'm sure there are a few extroverted individuals or those perhaps with something to prove on this issue who are more 'flamboyant' in their breastfeeding style, most want nothing more than complete discretion and to go un-noticed. But irrespective of motive or discretion there's a simple difference: One is a basic human need, the other is a matter of mild discomfort or religious intolerance. Neither get much respect from me. If they're dining and happen to be in the line of sight of a breastfeeding woman, then they should quietly and politely ask the waitstaff to move. The breastfeeding woman shouldn't even be made aware of it - it's their problem, not hers. At least in this country. I have no problems with immigrants, I think it's what this country was built on. I hate our current inhuman refugee policy. I applaud cultural and religious diversity and tolerance. But there's a line. Our culture today says that breastfeeding in public is not only acceptable, it's a legally enforceable right. If we travelled to another country where the opposite was true we'd be rightfully expected to abide by their cultural and religious laws, irrespective of whether they offend us personally.

Koffee_Kosmo · February 2013

My view is that breast feeding is as natural as breathing and have grown up with it myself and raised our children with breast feeding as our number one priority in there baby growing period Our family unit has no issues with breast feeding in public - in fact we find it refreshing to see life working as nature intended There is no common sense to all of this - so here goes my explanation based on my research and understanding of it A lot of the fear from complainants stem from a religious upbringing based on a moral doctrine In addition it may overlap with political correctness and fear of litigation I have read stories where men fear to speak to women and children ect in fear of litigation So if one wrong or misinterpreted look from anyone can be a potential law suit KK

hiphipharar · February 2013

on 1362009457:

But irrespective of motive or discretion there's a simple difference: One is a basic human need, the other is a matter of mild discomfort or religious intolerance. Neither get much respect from me.

Good arguments in your post but I'm not sure that's it's religious intolerance, more cultural but possibly attributed to a religion. The intolerance is a human perception rather than divine and I doubt whether there is anything in the Bible or Qu'ran or the like that forbids it. The question is whether a woman who does not have inhibitions about breastfeeding has the right to do so in public even through there is a risk that it would offend or make others feel uncomfortable. I suppose the same concept applies to topless sunbathing. Neither bothers me and I have to confess enjoying viewing a few white pointers at the beach. On a side note, I have to laugh when I remember in my teaching days going to Wanda Beach (Cronulla, Sydney) one day. I noticed a group of students who attended my school, some of whom were sunbathing topless. Then they noticed me and they were suddenly scrabbling for their bikini tops. Strange that they didn't mind displaying their assets to anyone else on the beach. :D Anyway, the crux of the matter is that, if the newspaper report is accurate, the offended patrons should have asked to move to a different table. If they refused, then the cafe owner could have approached the breastfeeding woman with a polite request. If she refused, then go back and tell the offended parties and let them know that that is far as the cafe is prepared to take the matter. Dunno - it's easy to comment as an observer but it's about respect for the fact that others' views are not the same as your own.

derrilex · February 2013

I just don't get it. What is there to be offended about ? Everyone loves boobs and babies attached to boobs is probably the most natural thing I can think of. Maybe there is a good business opp here. A tits out breast feeding cafe. Breast milk babycinos anyone ? :rofl:

hiphipharar · February 2013

on 1362013552:

I just don't get it. What is there to be offended about ? Everyone loves boobs and babies attached to boobs is probably the most natural thing I can think of. Maybe there is a good business opp here. A tits out breast feeding cafe. Breast milk babycinos anyone ? :rofl:

Quite! 'Hooters' could launch a cafe franchise. I think there is a market for 'mothers welcome' cafe as that is another controversial topic: patrons complaining about noisy or unruly children. But the point is that you have to accept that while you and I aren't offended, others could be. Whose POV is correct? Ours or theirs. What are patrons' rights in the breastfeeding in public scenario on either side?

UNM · February 2013

I would say that the mobs of women turning up specifically to breastfeed outside that cafe are less than discreet. They are, of course, doing so to draw attention to the issue and get people talking about it (quite successfully). Unfortunately, they may also be having an adverse effect on people in neighbouring workplaces just by being there in numbers - I don't know, but it seems likely. More worrying is that their children are no longer being treated with the care and respect they deserve - they have become pawns in someone elses game. Not black and white, but something to think about. Now imagine - what would have happened if the owner had handled things differently? For example if they told the mother "we had complaints about your breastfeeding and I have dealt with it. I just wanted to let you know in case you were approached by someone who took offence. I hope you are enjoying your triple shot short black, can I get you another?". Mother may still feel uncomfortable, but can hardly take offence at any specific person and is likely to be more sympathetic to the business owner. Also, whether the complainants are regulars or not might affect how they are treated by the owner. The customer may not always be right, but they are always the customer.

Kelsey · February 2013

on 1362014556:

But the point is that you have to accept that while you and I aren't offended, others could be. Whose POV is correct? Ours or theirs. What are patrons' rights in the breastfeeding in public scenario on either side?

I think in this case it's pretty clear-cut. The law is there for a reason and was hard won. It's no longer a 'point of view' situation. It's a very specific recognition of the fact that a baby's need to feed is a basic human right, whereas not having to look at it is not.

on 1362015309:

I would say that the mobs of women turning up specifically to breastfeed outside that cafe are less than discreet. They are, of course, doing so to draw attention to the issue and get people talking about it (quite successfully). Unfortunately, they may also be having an adverse effect on people in neighbouring workplaces just by being there in numbers - I don't know, but it seems likely. More worrying is that their children are no longer being treated with the care and respect they deserve - they have become pawns in someone elses game. Not black and white, but something to think about.

You're right, of course - there are now specific aims, goals and agendas being pushed here and it will be more flamboyant than a typical breastfeeding mother would be. That said, I wouldn't worry too much about the children - they're on the boob, trust me, they're in heaven! :D

on 1362015309:

Now imagine - what would have happened if the owner had handled things differently? For example if they told the mother "we had complaints about your breastfeeding and I have dealt with it. I just wanted to let you know in case you were approached by someone who took offence. I hope you are enjoying your triple shot short black, can I get you another?". Mother may still feel uncomfortable, but can hardly take offence at any specific person and is likely to be more sympathetic to the business owner.

I still don't see what purpose this serves, except to make the mother feel uncomfortable when she should need to and unwelcome at the premises. I really don't see the upside in this approach. Because the likelihood is that said prude will not approach the breastfeeding mother. If they were so incensed at the sight, they would have left or said something themselves. Instead, they've taken the cowardly approach and put the whole thing squarely on the shoulders of the business owner - who I do feel a great deal of sympathy for.

coffeehorse · February 2013

I'm gonna upset people, I think, but here goes...

on 1361961471:

I don't see the problem with it and how it gets to the point in these cafes where they ask them to leave. It's not like the mother is walking around with her tits out in the cafe.

Remember, this is Newtown - the home of Sydney's activists & hippy culture. I don't mean that in a denigrating way, but I've literally seen more than have a dozen women breastfeed, then drop their child down and wander up to the counter or water glass area or newspaper spot with their breast still out. It is exactly like some nursing mothers use the cover of breastfeeding to push an ultra-liberal/feminist agenda. Admittedly I used to stop at one or two Newtown cafes on the way into work each morning, to grab my lunch and sometimes a coffee. So I probably caught more 'exposure' than most.

on 1362009457:

Here's the thing tho - I've never seen a breastfeeding woman who was anything other than discreet. While I'm sure there are a few extroverted individuals or those perhaps with something to prove on this issue who are more 'flamboyant' in their breastfeeding style, most want nothing more than complete discretion and to go un-noticed.

You're not a Newtown regular, that's for sure. In Newtown I'd say 80-90% of women are discreet - but the same lady who was the centre of the furore, I'd seen at Black Star with her left breast out, seated directly to the left of the door and facing all customers coming in, and her kid in her right shoulder just having a cuddle. Under those circumstances, I think it's fair for someone not to stand up for her 'rights', but to politely ask her to put her breasts away if she's not using them.

One is a basic human need, the other is a matter of mild discomfort or religious intolerance.

Funny how you bring up religious intolerance - as an evangelical Christian I don't really want to be exposed to other women's bodies. I don't want to leer at other women, and I don't want to be tempted into situations that might tempt me to do so. Having said that, nursing a child anywhere is a right I fully support. But atheistic intolerance of religious people seems to me far more common than the reverse, lately. Respecting that some people have beliefs that they want to uphold seems rarer than asking for respect from the people whose views are getting denigrated and disparaged at the time.

Neither get much respect from me.

I understand why. Religious intolerance is horrible. But the examples of mild discomfort are there all the time - I'm not going to ask someone in the street to put a bra on under her see-through top, I'll just look away. If someone pulls out the 'lust' argument, I'd just suggest that you wouldn't ask a guy not to buy beer in case an alcoholic in the shop was tempted. For 'us religious people', it's our own to manage what goes through our heads. However, applauding cultural diversity is one thing, actually living with respect for religious people means that small acts are appreciated by many - tucking the breast that isn't being used back inside clothing doesn't cost more than a second, but in Newtown it seems to be the one place in Sydney that it regularly doesn't happen. Enough of these, and I avoid a cafe.

At least in this country. I have no problems with immigrants, I think it's what this country was built on. I hate our current inhuman refugee policy. I applaud cultural and religious diversity and tolerance.

Agreed - but you'll probably think of me as an intolerant, religious prude. I just don't want to see anyone's breasts but my wife's, on purpose. Anyone nursing a baby, I want them to feel free and able to nurse, but I noticed that not one of those women in the nurse-in was doing a 'both breasts open' or 'nipple showing' position. It seems in this case that the 'decorum' or 'modesty' they show on TV or when the papers are taking pictures is exactly the same thing that some people ask for, and get abuse for asking for.

I would say that the mobs of women turning up specifically to breastfeed outside that cafe are less than discreet.[...]children pawns in someone else's game

I would say they're discreet in the way they're breastfeeding during that sit-in, which is the line I prefer not crossed. As a Christian bloke I've been asked 'do you want me to go elsewhere to nurse', and the answer has always been 'no, it's fine'. If I were Muslim, the answer would of course be different. The Ku'ran does say more on this issue than the Bible, which talks about breastfeeding as a good and natural thing. The Qu'ran (however you anglicise it) generally makes men's and women's lusts the fault of the object of the lust, while the Bible makes it the fault of the starer. It also wouldn't have been an issue 2000 years ago - women breastfed everywhere, all the time. No plastic bottles, formula or breast pumps back then! (at least, not as far as I know!) It is troubling that society & media have sexualised breasts to such a point that teenagers and adults might be turned on by a woman breastfeeding, but the only way for this to happen is for breasts to reclaim the position of 'food for kids' by women feeling confident enough to breastfeed. I understand a woman feeling comfortable with breastfeeding, but not wanting to feel 'stared at in public', and some men do stare. The only way to prevent this would seem to be continuing education though. I'm not really sure that this wasn't a Lactivism stunt - the number of times, just specifically in Newtown, women leave one or both breasts out when not using them... could it possibly be trying to provoke a response? Or am I just cynical? Either way, I've learned that in Australian society, liberal people tend to speak their views loudly and being conservative tends to be decried as prudish, intolerant and just plain wrong. The reality is that when

I have to confess enjoying viewing a few white pointers at the beach.

is the 'standard', 'true blue Aussie' attitude, I can see why some women don't want to breastfeed in public. After all, for a woman who's been pregnant, the only difference between a 'white pointer' and a 'milk jug' is whether it's in a baby's mouth. Or are women with kids automatically de-sexualised and unattractive, while women without are objectified? And at which week of pregnancy (...or is it during labour) does this de-objectification happen? And wow. 'Prude', 'cowardly'... can we not think of people who disagree with us as people too? I may fall far more to the centre on this than most of you, but in Newtown, specifically, a feminist, liberal agenda is pushed and pushed hard. I should know - lots of relatives and friends push it! I just reckon it's easy to respect all the viewpoints - the law is won and whether I agree with it or not (I agree with it), the issue doesn't need to be pushed and pushed still - there are much bigger issues (like our government refusing both skilled migrants and unskilled, true refugees and failing to process them in a morally acceptable time!) ~CH Gah :/

Kelsey · February 2013

Hang on tho - I think I've managed to be pretty clear that I'm addressing the 80-90% of women who are discreet. I've spent enough time in Newtown to not doubt you in the slightest that what you describe is 100% accurate. I've never seen it, but I don't doubt it. And I don't disagree that anyone who is not actively breastfeeding should be asked to cover up - that too, is a matter of public indecency. I even said in an earlier post that the whole thing reeks of shoddy journalism - so it looks like the whole thing was a beat up waiting to happen. But I think you've taken some of what I've said the wrong way because you're viewing it through the lens of your (far more accurate) knowledge of the event. Everything I've said has been viewed from the perspective of a perfectly normal mother feeding her child in a discreet manner. Your account (again, I'm 100% positive it's accurate) is a very, very different lens to view this from. I don't back down from believing it's prudish to object to breastfeeding of the non-politically-motivated and discreet variety. But you're allowed to be a prude, it's a perfectly valid lifestyle choice. I'm not going to judge anyone on that, unless you're shooting me dirty looks and 'tsk tsk tsking' just loudly enough so I can hear and generally being a passive-aggressive-type prude. The difference is that you shouldn't be inflicting your lifestyle choice on others when they're on the right side of the law. You're allowed to be a nudist. You just can't do it on a main street in Sydney. Unless it's Mardi Gras. I said I have no patience for religious intolerance - but I hoped I'd made it clear that I have no patience for either variety: whether it's perpetrated by a religious person or towards a religious person. Neither is acceptable. My Children have been baptised as Catholics because I married into an extremely religious family. I come from a mildly religious family. So this isn't some kind of liberal bias where religious intolerance only works in one direction. I said 'cowardly' and I stand by it - but only in the context of a discreet mum. If it had been a discreet mum, raising an objection with the cafe owner is cowardly and wrongheaded. It's asking a business owner to be complicit in breaking the law for the complainant's own comfort. In the context of the hardcore feminist agenda, I'd probably decide my own discretion was the better part of valour and hightail it out of there before their femlasers vaporised my manbrain. If I absolutely couldn't control myself I'd probably say something to the owner also (and I'd feel like a coward doing it) - but it'd be about the loose boobs not the breastfeeding.

hiphipharar · February 2013

I can't stand intolerant people :P

Kelsey · February 2013

That's a massive generalization! Don't you know ALL generalizations are wrong?

coffeehorse · February 2013

Hi Kelsey, I think we're both in agreement, and I'm sorry if my post came across as an attack on your viewpoint - it read a little bit like that when I re-read it. I totally agree with what you were saying, but your post was the easiest one to use as a prop for my points, which is based around the whole "we assume people are decent and don't have an agenda, so when they do, the whole game changes". You're right that shoddy journalism (not reporting all the facts in an unbiased and complete manner) is responsible here, and while the cafe owner may well have been out of line, this whole 'loose boobs' phenomenon (great name for it) is unfortunately pretty prevelent right now in Newtown. While I guess some people love this, I find that for me, the objective pinnacle of beauty for me is subjective - it's however my wife looks that day. I still find it a bit weird that people in Newtown can be heard commenting "ooh, look at her tits, aren't they great/saggy/small/huge/etc" when someone is breastfeeding - but they can and are. As you say, either position is a bit undefensible. Reminds me of the phrase "there's nothing to see here - please move along"... there's usually something to see, but only of interest if you're wired a certain way.

askthecoffeeguy · February 2013

As the owner of a cafe which has been voted in the top ten family friendly cafes in melbourne (MummaMia / Little Eats) I have to say I have no problems with breast feeding mothers whatsoever If there's a group of mums with bubs in I'm more likely to assign a female colleague to look after them so that they feel comfortable, and I'm not left wondering where I should look - having said that if i sometimes accidentally stumble across a table where a child is being breast fed by its mother - I usually quickly state my business and am then on my way. And my experiences in these instances has been that the mother in question is usually not preturbed in the least - its often non parents or elder generations sitting at the same table who seem to be embarrassed instead! If a customer complains about breast feeding - which has actually never happened in the nearly four years I've been in business - I'd be inclined to move them to another table. Under no circumstances would I consider approaching the mother in question - and as for the 'letting it all hang out' between feeds situation - yes it has happened once or twice (but not for a very long time mind you) - but I for one was happy to be on the receiving end of an engorged mammary gland - so to speak If folks don't like it they can look away and in my experience most mums are discrete and sit either in the back end of the cafe or with their backs to the majority of patrons - so as to be most discrete We had some breast feeding mums in the cafe today - and I for one just waited for them to finish their business, before approaching the table - and both I and them seemed to be pretty comfortable with that In my experience parents with young children who come to the cafe are very conscious of any potential disturbance they might make, and take positive steps to prevent others from inadvertently taking offence Only twice in my nearly four years at the cafe have I asked parents to take control of their children - who were running around and being quite vocal - and in both instances the parents were completely understanding Recently I had someone complain about the noise some children were making - and to my mind the kids were just being kids and were not excessive or misbehaving at all, and I told the person in question that as a family friendly cafe some noise disturbance is inevitable at certain times of the day - most often after school drop off and pick up - but invariably these are otherwise quiet times of the day - and I for one welcome the additional patronage ACg

askthecoffeeguy · February 2013

Oh and slightly off topic I saw a mum with her kids at the shopping mall today and the kids, and especially one in particular - were completely off tap! I saw the mother in question absolutely thump the older child, and then completely ignore the youngest one who was having a total and complete meltdown - some folks are just not designed or suited or worthy to be parents and I pitty the poor rug rats at the mercy of such monsters If you ask me the whole breast feeding in a cafe thing is just a storm in a tea cup - there are far more pressing issues regarding parenting which are worthy of our consideration Which is not to say its not an important topic, but in the scheme of things I'm not going to be losing any sleep over it The site of a traumatised child who had virtually been abandoned by his mum, however, is one I'm not likely to forget #firstworldproblems

RichardM · February 2013

on 1362042620:

I for one was happy to be on the receiving end of an engorged mammary gland - so to speak

Quote of the year, right there.

askthecoffeeguy · February 2013

on 1362047514:

Quote of the year, right there.

yeah, thought I'd throw that one into the mix for good measure :angel:

hiphipharar · March 2013

on 1362047514:

"I for one was happy to be on the receiving end of an engorged mammary gland - so to speak" Quote of the year, right there.

A man was riding a bus, minding his own business, when the gorgeous woman next to him started to breastfeed her child. The child wouldn't take it, so she said, "Come on sweetie, eat it all up or I'll have to give it to this nice man next to us." Five minutes later, the child was still not feeding, so she said, "Come on, honey. Take it or I'll give it to this nice man here." A few minutes later, the anxious man blurted out, "Come on kid. Make up your mind! I was supposed to get off four stops ago!"

askthecoffeeguy · March 2013

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

askthecoffeeguy · March 2013

my cafe was full of mums and babes today and I'm pleased to say that it was all very harmonious!

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