Machine advice please!

Comments

• mattyj

  April 2006

  The Giotto and the Diadema are Heat Exchange machines, whereas the Expobar is a dual-boiler, with temp control on the brew boiler. (ie, if you're finding the brew water a few degrees too hot, turn it down. Too cool? turn it up!) Adjusting your brewing temp on a hx machine involves adjusting your flushing routine ... a lot of fussing around with multimeters and thermocouples. That said, while temp control would be nice to have, but not necessary. Go for the machine with the bast backup!

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• john

  April 2006

  Peter The BZ 99 is a good machine. However if you are thinking of upgrading and choosing between the Splendor and the Giotto, it will come back to aesthetics. They are both excellent machines. Over the past years I have sold and used both machines. I currently have a Junior (the Splendors cousin) on the bench. It is doing such a great job, I do not want to part with it!!!! The Splendor and Giotto have similar features and both produce exceptional espresso, and can texture pretty awsome milk. They both have an E61 group head. It is a bit hard to go into all the details on the forum, however if you would like to discuss either of these machines in detail, please feel free to call me on 0409 583 007 With the Expobar, sorry but I can't help you on that. John

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• FreshCoffee2

  April 2006

  Matty and all, with regard to your post above, I would like to make a few comments as you have raised some good points that should I think be clarified for all who read. The comments are in no particular order and not intended to upset anyone. The trouble with us all participating in these special interest sites is we have to look around ourselves every so often & make sure we are not starting to take things too seriously or getting too tied up "in the high end" of our special interest where only about another 0.0005% of the population are hiding with us. The greatest majority of espresso machine purchasers by far, will never touch their machines or try to reset or adjust anything whatsoever. They will actually, rely on their vendor (particularly if they have bought an item of high quality & expense) to be able to give them proper "service" & to take care of anything that needs setting or adjusting, hopefully before they even pick up their new toy. In fact, they wouldnt know where or how to reset or adjust anything and in most cases, wouldnt know anything was even out of adjustment or might need resetting.... The only thing they will know, is if the machine is not doing what it used to, or if the coffee is not brewing out as they think it should. So infact even if the brew temp of the expobar can be reset, most clients wouldnt know why you would want to do that & would expect it should be right enough when they buy the machine. Same goes for regular commercial design heat exchanger machines like the Diadema / Splendors & Giotto. Whilst they dont have a directly resettable brew temp this of course can be adjusted by indirect means (not by the client) but again, almost all clients wouldnt know this might or might not need doing...and same as above the client will rely on the thing working as it should at purchase or will ask the vendor for service after purchase. None of the above basically then, is the domain of the client, who in most cases expects that the purchase will simply work as it should upon purchase, although I will admit of course that a greater proportion of high end equipment purchasers will have a better level of understanding of their equipment otherwise they would not have bought in the high end. Any high end esp machine vendor or service agent that requires the use of thermocouples and multimeters to get a commercial design heat exchanger esp machine to work properly has been reading far too many details & theory, and perhaps is balancing this theoretical knowledge with not enough practical experience. On the other hand learning how to use "the new toy" to obtain its best is the domain of the purchaser / client, and it is in that process the client learns how simple it is to "temperature surf" the group before applying the group handle to brew the espresso. This introduces more "fun" for the client where they may enroll in an espresso making course, etc etc tec. Buying a high end machine then is a "total experience" where you buy it, then you learn how to use it, then (if you are that way inclined) you revell in the new world of "espresso subtlties" you have been introduced to, then you might start asking questions about brew temp / pressure etc. But this comes later and may I say in most cases, probably much much later, by which time the client has started to understand the subtlties of his equipment and doesnt need to reset it at all, just accompodate with his new found operator / barista technique. This is the nature of any electric pump driven espresso machine. Anyone that has had a BZ99 for a number of years, is already familiar with the scenario, and knows that none of this needs to be "that hard". In any case then I am in total agreement that clients should go with good quality machines, no matter whether they have 1 or 2 or 25 boilers, or whether thay have heat exchangers or not, but are items of best quality.....with really good backup service from the vendor or agent. Just like hi-fi...you dont buy hi fi from electrical appliance stores, but from specialist hi-fi stores that understand & service what they sell. Then, simply enjoy. All the machines mentioned above are of very high standard, and of course one of them is imported by my company so I will declare my interest up front. We conduct pre delivery set up and client familiarisation & instruction before they leave the premises (together). Regardz, FC.

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• mattyj

  April 2006

  Agreed, FC, not upset at all! Thinking about it, I guess there's a lot of similarities to digital cameras. Most people want something to point at their subject, and click away. Some people want total control, over ISO settings, aperture settings, shutter speeds etc. Then there's the people in between, who want a bit of control, but not too much. In the end, both types of camera will take nice pictures - but the likelihood of getting a better picture goes up, with knowledge and understanding of the equipment. That's when 'tweakability' comes in. This is where an SLR enables the photographer to explore different settings and all that. Back to machines - I'd say that the expobar is targetted entirely to the geek market - especially the Minore mk II, which had not only temp setting controls, but brew pressure setting controls as well. It gives you the ability to explore. But then, if you're not that into coffee (ie: the rest of the population), then you probably wouldn't 'get' the benefits, and you'd find no need for temp/pressure adjustments. Stick with a solid-performer (eg: ECM, diadema) with good service, and a vendor who will teach you stuff. I guess home espresso is, for me, a hobby, rather than a desire to have cafe quality coffee at home (there's a great cafe across the road, less than two minutes walk from my door ... they even let me make my own coffee there!). I enjoy tweaking and exploring how a coffee changes with different roast degrees and all that ... but not everyone does. That's cool. Just budget for a good grinder!

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• john

  April 2006

  FC said: "All the machines mentioned above are of very high standard, ..... We conduct pre delivery set up and client familiarisation & instruction before they leave the premises (together)." I agree, this is important. I always prefer to bench test machines for 3-5 days. By doing this, it can save hassles. I also offer instruction/training and spend a good part of the time on cleaning and maintenance. Many resellers say to 'read the instruction book' ... duuurrrrhhhh. mattyj said: "Just budget for a good grinder!" This is also very important for any person contemplating the purchase of domestic espresso machines. Sadly, you can't always rely on the ground beans that you purchase from the super-marche. 1. The freshness could be debatable 2. The grind particle size might not be suitable for your machine type. JD

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