Grind retention

Kelsey · April 2013

I'm not sure how many of us single-dose, but I'd imagine that for a lot of us who home-roast, we tend to single-dose more than just load up the hopper and let it rip.

As a result, I've become increasingly interested in the very boring topic of grind retention. It's one of the things I like most about the Vario and the HG One - near zero grind retention.

Recently I've started doing something that I swore I'd never do: weigh my beans.

I purchased a little digital scale (recommended by Lacehim at $8 on eVilBay) and have achieved much greater consistency by dosing 20 grams into my 22g VST. YMMV depending on the machine.

Wanting to know how well the Breville Smart Grinder performed, today I also measured the output.

I weighed 20.0g of beans and loaded into the hopper. I've developed routine where I run the grinder until it's clear, whacking the hopper while it's clear to dislodge any remaining grinds.

Result: 19.9g.

I can live with that.

Dry_bean. · April 2013

Yep, I single dose Kelsey. I use a Mazzer Mini, weigh my beans, 18 grams into an 18 gram La Marzocco basket. Have never bothered to weigh the results however will do so and report back.

Koffee_Kosmo · April 2013

I use the volume method to measure a dose that marries up with the basket I am using It's simply one of those double spout shot glasses that have graduated markings and its very acurate KK

Kelsey · April 2013

We both know that Bezzeras are a bit sensitive to dose, given the low showerscreen. Some people might say that means they're utterly incapable of making a good shot. Those people would be wrong. :stir KK, are you measuring the volume of beans or the volume of grinds? DB - looking forward to the results!

Koffee_Kosmo · April 2013

@Kelsey Volume of whole beans go into the shot glass to be ground KK

derrilex · April 2013

I just keep beans in the hopper. Now it's chopped it holds bugger all anyway but I've found a much more consistent grind with a bit of bean weight above the burrs. Also great for taking the edge off beans that are too fresh due to poor forward roast planning :laugh: As for weighing - mods, we need a too anal emoticon please. :rofl:

Dry_bean. · April 2013

Just did a before and after weigh. !8.02 grams in 18.03 out ::) obviously very little in it. My grinder starts pretty clean and finishes the same way. I went through the process as normal, grind, clear chute, dose, sweep doser, dose last few dregs. What I can tell you is that when I do my grinder clean every six months or so, I get between 3 and 4 grams of caked on grounds from in and around the burr chamber.

Brett H · April 2013

on 1367309229:

Just did a before and after weigh. !8.02 grams in 18.03 out ::) obviously very little in it. My grinder starts pretty clean and finishes the same way. I went through the process as normal, grind, clear chute, dose, sweep doser, dose last few dregs. What I can tell you is that when I do my grinder clean every six months or so, I get between 3 and 4 grams of caked on grounds from in and around the burr chamber.

This is an excellent point and unless you've cleaned your grinder thoroughly before your weigh in-weigh out you may actually be getting a similar amount of grinds to beans but from a different batch ??? My two big commercials as well as Mr Rocky would retain grinds from previous shots unless I swept out the chutes or as in Mr Rocky's case used the click-clack. I see my extra intervention as the price I pay for big stable consistent burrs.

askthecoffeeguy · May 2013

I'd probably cry if I measured my wastage from the cafe from the weekends trade when we're doing 10kg per day

Jonty · May 2013

Personally I load the hopper on the M4D, grind the first 3-5g for the bin and then grind by sight. I do two 20g shots in the morning and what ever is left in the hopper get ground through and into the bin. I would say I waist about 7-9g everyday. Not an issue for shot reproducibility and I don't worry about the loss as home roasting is a saving within itself

Jonty

Dry_bean. · May 2013

Didn't take long for the topic to change from (grind retention) to (this is how I dose.) ::)

derrilex · May 2013

My Eureka retains heaps and I don't care. There ya go, back on topic :D

Jonty · May 2013

on 1367399108:

Didn't take long for the topic to change from (grind retention) to (this is how I dose.) ::)

Arh DOH I think I might of been part of the digression

on 1367309229:

Just did a before and after weigh. !8.02 grams in 18.03 out ::) obviously very little in it. My grinder starts pretty clean and finishes the same way. I went through the process as normal, grind, clear chute, dose, sweep doser, dose last few dregs. What I can tell you is that when I do my grinder clean every six months or so, I get between 3 and 4 grams of caked on grounds from in and around the burr chamber.

So a lepoard doesn't loose it spots hey :-*

askthecoffeeguy · May 2013

I haven't measured or weighed for grind retention on my Breville smart grinder - but I do like how the dose is minutely adjustable, so I grind into my coffee storage canister which came with the sunbeam em480 and transfer the grinds from there to my Rancilio Epoca at home - and from there there minimal to no wastage that im aware of

askthecoffeeguy · May 2013

on 1367408020:

I haven't measured or weighed for grind retention on my Breville smart grinder - but I do like how the dose is minutely adjustable, so I grind into my coffee storage canister which came with the sunbeam em480 and transfer the grinds from there to my Rancilio Epoca at home - and there's seems to be minimal to no wastage that im aware of in this process

Jonathon · June 2013

I dose into a light plastic party glass, for a few reasons, but principally for weighing, I find it's easy to weigh 18g each time. I've written its weight, 4.4g, on the underside so I don't have to zero the scales, which is handy incase you're weighing and you suddenly forget whether or not you've zeroed. Also, it's cleaner than dosing into the PF from my K3, zero mess and if there's a bit of clumping, a quick shake side to side declumps very nicely. Although being very light plastic there is the risk of introducing a little static. Cheers Jonathon

conikal · June 2013

on 1367309229:

Just did a before and after weigh. !8.02 grams in 18.03 out ::) obviously very little in it. My grinder starts pretty clean and finishes the same way. I went through the process as normal, grind, clear chute, dose, sweep doser, dose last few dregs.

But ..by doing the ....."clear chute, dose, sweep doser, dose last few dregs" ... exercise, you are admitting there is significant grind retention ! for a true "retention" check, you need to start with a "clean" empty grinder, load a known weight of beans, grind, and weigh only those grinds that fall out the chute.

Brett H · June 2013

on 1371005291:

But ..by doing the ....."clear chute, dose, sweep doser, dose last few dregs" ... exercise, you are admitting there is significant grind retention ! for a true "retention" check, you need to start with a "clean" empty grinder, load a known weight of beans, grind, and weigh only those grinds that fall out the chute.

Absolutely! As a big commercial grinder owner if I didn't sweep the grounds out I may never see some of those grinds ever again ??? Seriously this is way I was alluding to above. Welcome Jonathon!

saoye · June 2013

This is my pet hate! Here's what I do to eliminate grind retention from the mazzer mini E doserless: 1.Weigh beans for shot 2.Grind beans 3.Clean neck with long brush 4.Clear chute with long brush 5.Use Q-ball air blower to clear chute Most people would not be this bothered. Anyways, you'll see from the video that if you don't do anything from a cleaned out grinder you will leave behind about 4g of grind which stays there until the next grind. Sorry about the lighting in the video... [embed=425,349]

askthecoffeeguy · June 2013

nicely demonstrated example Saoye - but I'm guessing that youre actual routine when making a coffee is much quicker - otherwise the basket would be cold and cold baskets = sour coffee!

Brett H · June 2013

Brilliant video Saoye! I hadn't thought of using my Giotto air blower for fines! Thanks for the tip and. Great vid! I also completely endorse Pat's comments.

askthecoffeeguy · June 2013

I also like the use of the Q-Ball could be great for the cafe as well!

Koffee_Kosmo · June 2013

That's pretty much what I do as well with the brush ect I now want one of those Qball blowers KK

saoye · June 2013

:laugh: YES! My usual routine is much faster. I grind directly into the portafilter, I do not re-weigh and I also do not make commentaries while I'm making the espresso! The Q-ball is brilliant! A must have if you have the Mini-E. I'd almost say it's as important as the brush, but I can't live without my brush. In high traffic situations the retention probably does not matter so much, but if it was me in a cafe situation I'd still give it a spray with the Q-ball once at midday and once at close of business. At home it's an issue because I'd make 1 coffee in the morning and 1 at night, so the retained coffee sits in my grinder for a good 9 hours or so and then overnight, so it gets Q-balled at every shot.

Jonathon · June 2013

Great video Saoye, it's always good to see people who have coffee processes that are as idiosyncratic as mine. A broader question on the blower, I've heard that some grinders shouldn't have air blown through them. Specifically, when I bought my K3 I was told my the vendor not to blow air through it, either from the top or through the chute, something about not forcing fines into the motor or elsewhere in the grinder. Is that not an issue with the Mazzer? That said, I've blown air from my air compressor through my Rocky in the past, cleans like a dream and hasn't created any problems. On the rocky, my idiosyncratic behaviour is to strip it down fully every few months to clean every single particle from the burrs and housing. All the advice on other forums is that it doesn't make a difference, but I simply can't accept that taking a load of very stale crusty grinds out doesn't help in any way. At the very least, whenever you grind, the fresh coffee touches the stale grinds and must knock off a tiny amount of stale stuff. If it didn't touch the stale stuff then the stale stuff couldn't build up in the first place, and by knocking off a tiny amount each time, it stops it building up even more.

askthecoffeeguy · June 2013

I've got a robur and a k10 at work as my main workhorse grinders (not doserless) and I reckon we probably end up with 200g on the floor or swept into the knockout bin as a result from updosing, on a busy day, which seems like a terrible waste - but I do like the ability to dose for several coffees at once when we've got a rush on I guess it's a pretty finely balanced equation between minimising wastage and convenience and ease of use, in a cafe environment

Lacehim · June 2013

The manufactures of grinders really haven't dealt with the home market very well in this regard. Mine (a Vario) holds a minimal amount but does need a blip after grinding to flick out the final 1g or so. I love this grinder for the retention! It seems to be the biggest design flaw on most domestic and commercial grinders and adds to wastage or sub par coffee. You won't notice it at peak times on a commercial but off peak times I think you will. I'll stick with my Vario until I can afford a HG One I think.

askthecoffeeguy · June 2013

Having said that I use a hand held Dyson both at the cafe and at home to clean out the Shute at the w d of each day ...

saoye · June 2013

on 1371156829:

Great video Saoye, it's always good to see people who have coffee processes that are as idiosyncratic as mine. A broader question on the blower, I've heard that some grinders shouldn't have air blown through them. Specifically, when I bought my K3 I was told my the vendor not to blow air through it, either from the top or through the chute, something about not forcing fines into the motor or elsewhere in the grinder. Is that not an issue with the Mazzer? That said, I've blown air from my air compressor through my Rocky in the past, cleans like a dream and hasn't created any problems.

Hi Jonathan, I have read before that someone used compressed air from a canister to blow away grinds from the hopper causing a mini explosion. I think it's a combination of the propellant and dust particals creating heat and spark generated from grinding burrs (or motor)...I have not seen or heard of a hand blower causing the same kind of issue. Firstly it isn't a constant amount of air and the pressure generated from a Q-ball is similar to mouth blowing directed air, plus it is just air without any form of propellant or highly flamable gas. By the way, the Q-ball aren't the cheapest option for air blowers, but they are mighty effective and I love the bendable neck for visibility. I think mine came from Ireland of all places.

Jonathon · June 2013

on 1371179178:

Hi Jonathan, I have read before that someone used compressed air from a canister to blow away grinds from the hopper causing a mini explosion. I think it's a combination of the propellant and dust particals creating heat and spark generated from grinding burrs (or motor)..

Sounds like a case for Mythbusters.

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