Should you ever post negative reviews?

admin · September 2013

[Note: thread could also be named 'Review the Reviewer'].

Hi guys, back from 5 or 6 weeks in Sydney and have an interesting 'philosophical' one for you:

Have recently created a bit of a twitter-storm, but giving poor feedback on a cafe in Sydney, which is a bit of a darling of the cognoscenti up there [take a look at @cremamagazine if you're a twitter-type person]. Raises an interesting question - should we ever put up a review that doesn't mention a cafe in glowing terms?

We're aware that many magazines/reviewers take the view that if it's great [or if it's a current 'media darling'] they'll post, but if not, they just won't say anything - we've always had a preference to 'tell it like it is', but what do you think?

-A

PS this particular cafe was one we struggled with as we always like to say something positive. Truth is the coffee was terrible, but we described it as 'on the bland side of inoffensive'.

hiphipharar · September 2013

Of course you should give negative reviews but fully explain why you did so. I would always try to include some positives so it least has an inkling of objectivity. Being popular doesn't make it good. A cafe should be popular because nit is good, not good because it is popular. But quite a few cafes have started out good, became popular and then became less good as the owners change, baristas change or the proprietors lose incentive to keep trying. I could probably guess which cafe you reviewed even though I don't use twitter and, if it is the one I am thinking of, have had brilliant coffee and poor coffee there. Is there anycafe that produces great coffee 100% of the time? I don't think a proper review should be based on one experience. Tell it like it is, but report what happened next time you visit or after you gave the barista/owner feedback

admin · September 2013

on 1379300396:

Of course you should give negative reviews but fully explain why you did so. I would always try to include some positives so it least has an inkling of objectivity. Being popular doesn't make it good. A cafe should be popular because nit is good, not good because it is popular. But quite a few cafes have started out good, became popular and then became less good as the owners change, baristas change or the proprietors lose incentive to keep trying. I could probably guess which cafe you reviewed even though I don't use twitter and, if it is the one I am thinking of, have had brilliant coffee and poor coffee there. Is there anycafe that produces great coffee 100% of the time? I don't think a proper review should be based on one experience. Tell it like it is, but report what happened next time you visit or after you gave the barista/owner feedback

actually the cafe in question does have twitter [very active, as I said, they are darlings of the Sydney cognoscenti!]; also important to note that we never base a review on just one coffee. it's an interesting point though, and in fact another aspect to the debate... we use twitter as a 'less formal' means of recording our experiences [some cafe-based and some just political opinions!]. We often also use it as a way of recording images of the places we visited - a barista doing his/her thing, a particularly nice rosetta etc. Maybe this should be a separate thread [do Twitter posts ie in 140 characters, count as a review?] but just thought I'd add this as a PS to the question above, for now as it's very relevant.

FreshCoffee2 · September 2013

I havent seen what you wrote A, as I choose not to do twitter or facebook. However, as in every walk of life, I think you can say almost anything good or bad....as long as it is said nicely or in a way so as not to insult or offend. If the idea is to offer a constructive criticism that leaves the door open for further dialogue, then I think that is ok./...which is why it is so important to have some kind of balancing comments about other things in the business you are reviewing, and to have an overall positive spin on the whole thing. Otherwise, I do think it is better to say nothing.

hiphipharar · September 2013

on 1379304064:

If the idea is to offer a constructive criticism that leaves the door open for further dialogue, then I think that is ok./...which is why it is so important to have some kind of balancing comments about other things in the business you are reviewing, and to have an overall positive spin on the whole thing. Otherwise, I do think it is better to say nothing.

You can't provide much detail in a 140-char Twitter post.

Brett H · September 2013

As long as your methodology is sound then you risk your own credibility if not honest. Sadly in our culture, those who agree with you will nod silently and those who don't will be vocal. I've been a professional adjudicator for more than 10 years and know this first hand. Be constructive not destructive, honest and fair. This way you'll be consistent and your opinion sought. Never negative, constructive.

askthecoffeeguy · September 2013

I tend to not review places if my experience of them is overly bad, but if it's pretty good but with a few negatives, I think that's fair game But plenty do not subscribe to that philosophy as evidenced by urban spoon etc, Salvatore even has a full time media person now just to manage his urban spoon status, which dare I say it, is now only marginally better than my own! Free feedback can also be a marvellous form of transformation for a cafe, and I reckon it's fair game to take the good with the bad I'm curious now to see what you wrote! I've had some very interesting Twitter feedback today, including someone who praised my cafe but dissed a much higher rated cafe in my area, and Matt Holden retweeted several of my tweets today ~ that's gold for a cafe! But I've certainly had my fare share of vocal critics in the past!

Koffee_Kosmo · September 2013

I mostly go to cafes for food Most are fantastic - a select few are better than a high end restaurant So if I was to review it would be on that basis KK

Jonathon · September 2013

I'm a little tired of the sycophants in the cafe industry, and I'm mainly thinking of one or two professional reviewers, who clearly review cafes with at least one biased eye depending on who owns the cafe. So if you've tried this Sydney cafe on more than one occasion, ideally different days and different baristas, and if it's the latest darling, then go for it, you're doing the public a service. That said, I sympathise with cafe owners who have to deal with anonymous critics who often have an axe to grind over perhaps the tiniest slip up in quality. Usually giving feedback, assuming they have the social skills to do it politely, yields a very positive response.

mycuppa · September 2013

Love this topic. If your job is to provide reviews, or you think your business relies upon reviews - as Brett has indicated very importantly it must be executed totally objectively using structured and consistent approaches. Regardless, if you play in this space you need to be prepared to take it both ways (the good with the bad) - or choose to do as Attilio and I - ignore the white noise and enjoy the peace and quiet. Regardless of reputation, if your expectation was not met, in the first instance it would have been more appropriate, given your position/influence/role within the industry, to engage directly with whoever was in charge and ask them if they could have another attempt (or attempts) to prepare the coffee in a suitable manner. Maybe that might not have been an option at the time, but these days people tend to lose the art of engaging when it comes to customer service. The direct engagement would have provided a fair chance for both parties. Should the supplier decline or fail to deliver on a re-attempt, then it would be more than reasonable to report it "as happened" - if that is of course a standard methodology you execute. If it is more the "mystery shopper" style that you use or prefer, then just tell it like it is - so long as it is consistent across all the reviews you perform and you are prepared for some blow-back. Reviews, in general terms, tend to be emotion-charged and for those reasons there can be a degree of bias - whether it's the new whitegoods appliance that has just failed, a bad/slow coffee in a cafe or a carton of coffee beans that was pulverized by my good friends at Australia Post. Everyone has their personal reasons to support or avoid reviews. Alas, the overwhelming number of trolls and over-hyped self-promoting posts have taken the objectivity, truth and transparency out of what used to be a reliable source of information.

admin · September 2013

on 1379329599:

I'm a little tired of the sycophants in the cafe industry, and I'm mainly thinking of one or two professional reviewers, who clearly review cafes with at least one biased eye depending on who owns the cafe. So if you've tried this Sydney cafe on more than one occasion, ideally different days and different baristas, and if it's the latest darling, then go for it, you're doing the public a service.

interesting discussion so far; just an aside but re: Jonathon's post, one of the most telling things for me is that in spite of all the furiously indignant comments for having had the gall to question one of their precious ones - calling their coffee bland was apparently 'denigrating' them [in truth is was worse than that - almost tasteless, but that's not the point]; an explicit invitation to debate reviews like this, has led to exactly zero posts so far from the offended ones!! A

Janlab · September 2013

I don't do twitter or open fb, so wouldn't know what caused the uproar. Some generic comments; If your review is not honest, then its not worth writing, or reading. Especially if you review for a magazine with influence. The bad has to be said with the good. If the coffee was bad, it was bad....but the decor may be sublime, the food/snacks fantastic, and the music great, all making for an enjoyable experience.....which may be why others tolerate the coffee. I don't believe reviews should be more than an honest appraisal by an unbiased person. No critcism, hints on improvement, or unfair comparisons please! And an opinion based on a single experience may not be the totally accurate, since we all have our less than optimal moments.

Jonathon · September 2013

on 1379335177:

If the coffee was bad, it was bad....but the decor may be sublime, the food/snacks fantastic, and the music great, all making for an enjoyable experience.....which may be why others tolerate the coffee.

As a generic statement that's fair enough, but in this particular situation I get the impression someone has just pointed out the king isn't wearing any clothes, and the king and his mates are indignant at being told this. I'm not close enough to the Sydney scene, but some of the publicity that goes to the darlings of the coffee scene in Melb is pathetic. I won't name names and risk offending anyone, but if you live in Melb you'll know the usual suspects. Cafes that without doubt try to do their best, but their idea of great coffee is usually more lightly roasted. But they're the darlings of the media, so that must be the way coffee should taste these days! Of course there's a place for lightly roasted fruity coffee, but how about serving a choc bomb alongside it? All these places have multiple grinders and individually-controlled groups, so they could, if they'd just roast a little darker.

admin · September 2013

You're correct Jonathon, there's a huge amount of PR that goes into opening some of these trendy new places... There were essentially two aspects to the howls of complaints [if you do have access to twitter, it would be great if you could have a quick look]. One, by calling it like it is, on a quick Tweet [where admittedly you don't have room to do a full review] we offended many of their faithfuls - ie how can you tell us that you had a bad coffee their [reminder: we just used the word 'bland' as we try to be as positive as possible]. To my mind there are several questions that come out of this: 1. considering it was a 'rogue' result [if it was a few rogue shots], can so-called top cafe be expected to pump out a perfect shot, time after time? 2. is it correct for us to say: 'that was our experience, at that time on that day'? The second category [from more of the coffee professional' -types] was that we should have approached them about the poor categories [and presumably asked them to pour them again]. Two problems with that - firstly, we always visit anonymously, since as you can imagine 1.we're humble folk and 2. if we rolled up everywhere and said 'hi, we're from Crema Mag, here to test your coffee' we may not get a representative result. Secondly, since we're anonymous, I can really imagine a friendly response from some of these trendy cafes, if we turned back up at the counter and said, 'sorry, but these coffees are no good'. Things like "What do you mean they're not good enough, what would you know [since we're anonymous] and more likely, "What would you know, I made them!" being screamed back at us, come to mind... so in this situation, the question really comes back down to, should we have gone away and just not said anything, or should we have dared to mention that we didnt' have great coffees at this place, in spite of the hype they've managed to generate for themselves? Obviously we chose the latter path because we prefer to 'call it like it is', but am sure there are arguments for the other side too [as respected industry pro. FC has stated above]. A PS interesting that in spite of all the vitriol from the little 'trendoids', we've actually had something like 30 new Twitter followers in 24 hours!

Coffee Roaster · September 2013

The problem here is commercial interest. Every coffee company big or small find there own space in the market and thats it. Is anyones coffee that much better than someone else's? (provided its roasted well, using good green)I don't think you can compare coffee roasted using different fundamental roasting philosophies or styles. As roasters we are all different. I can appreciate light stuff, but I love old school espresso. That whole light or dark debate is a waste of time. I think the cafe over reacted. I don't think there custom will suffer. I think Crema was naive. It's like Wiki Leaks. All the big names do sell some coffee that does not live up to hype. But get upset if thats pointed out. Like its a secret. Business and making great coffee 100% of the time don't always mix. The coffee I get in the back room with owners of these establishments, is not always the same as out the front. They need to build a brand and aura around there stuff. I think Crema is in the same boat. Their is advertising in the mag that is at odds with quality coffee. But hey its commercial reality. It does my head in when someone unfairly criticises my coffee, but as Mark said, Harden Up. The twitter verse, forums etc should be well understood by now. We forget there are people behind the avatars. In solidarity with all coffee professionals, Light/Dark roasters, Barista, etc. M.

admin · September 2013

on 1379371516:

I think Crema was naive. I think Crema is in the same boat. Their is advertising in the mag that is at odds with quality coffee. But hey its commercial reality.

Good feedback. FYI a couple of clarifications "I think Crema was naive." - we were not unaware that our comment [however mild] wouldn't be appreciated, especially when you consider they'd been built up to believe they 'could do no wrong'. What we were a little surprised about was when we were accused by some people of 'trashing' or denigrating' the cafe - can only assume that was because they [the cafe] had been so hyped up that even a slightly non-positive comment [ie anything not explicitly praising them] could be seen as 'trashing'. re: your "commercial reality" point - we don't seek advertising from any cafes.

Janlab · September 2013

on 1379363009:

but in this particular situation I get the impression someone has just pointed out the king isn't wearing any clothes, and the king and his mates are indignant at being told

My point exactly, and if true, then an honest review, pointing out the privates, has done it's job. Of course the owners won't like it, but I bet that they actually know that the coffee is bad! Crema, keep up the honest reviews...or risk losing your credibility.

FreshCoffee2 · September 2013

Just remember folks, ...Silence is Golden... Some of us have been round long enough to have suffered our fair share of negative feedback. Sometimes it is fair comment, you cop it sweet, improve what you do and turn it into a positive. Other times the reviewer is either an incompetent (and therefore shouldnt have commented?) OR has an axe to grind with the particular business over some perceived problem and will take a swipe where they think it will hurt the most... You will never know which it is, unless you are an insider... In any case regardless, the best form of defence in the universe with this kind of stuff is to shut the $#^(*@ up....and it will all go away. Business owners that become publicly indignant, or start their minions on an anonymous quest of counter comments, have got it wrong I am afraid, as it prolongs the angst for them and spreads the news of whatever someone said in the first place, presumably a negative comment. ie, more people get to hear the negative comment, because you wont shut up and let it go away. And of course the cynics and conspiracy theorists among us are fully aware that all the anonymous indignant posts, are from the business owners friends, acquaintances and staff, so what's the point of that. Anonimity has its own problems as it detracts from the merit of the comments.....you dont know who was behind them, and therefore you have to ask, are you being manipulated for whatever reason that suits the person making the comments? Silence is Golden. And therefore I would say, rather than asking "should you ever post negative reviews" I would counter with..." Should anyone ever post ANONYMOUS reviews"? I think posters have to be prepared to put their name to their posts.

askthecoffeeguy · September 2013

I have to say I'm usually happy to receive feedback both positive and negative from my customers, as it gives me the opportunity, where possible, to exceed their expectations - of course, this can only happen if the offending article is drawn to your attention at the time, its not much good if someone's at the till, ready to pay, and they're saying to you, "By the way, you're coffee is rubbish!" Sometimes its the difference between changing dates on the beans that you're using, and still dialling in the grind (although in theory this ought to be a straight forward adjustment, but in reality this is not always the case), or you're in the process of still training a new person up on the coffee machine, who brings with them practises from elsewhere, which may not be suited to the beans that you're using, the equipment that you're working on, or you're stated preferences for making coffee I was in New Zealand recently for a family gathering, and managed to tiki tour around a bit, trying coffees from all over the North Island (although, not as much as I would've liked as the main reason for the trip was a family reunion), and I had some excellent and exceptional coffees (a few but not much), some really good coffees almost everywhere I went (which was mostly the case), and a couple of rubbish ones which I just couldnt drink (maybe two or three) In the case of the rubbish ones I didnt bother saying anything, I just paid my money and left. I figured that it actually takes quite a lot of effort to make a rubbish coffee (as it does a good one), and if the barista in question was trying so hard to make terrible coffee (intentional or otherwise), then I didnt really have the time, patience, or temperament, to tell them otherwise In the case of the mostly good coffees, I was surprised by how many otherwise good coffee extractions were let down by poor milk (most places I tried use Anchor milk, and I'm not sure how its processed but it just tastes ultra-pasturised to me, either that or the milk in question had been reheated), which just didnt sit well with me And in the truly exceptional cases (some of which were out of the way / off the beaten track, and quite unexpected!), I went out of my way to inform the staff how much I enjoyed their coffee! At the end of the day a lot of effort at every step along the production line goes into making a quality coffee, and it only takes one mishap along the way to send it all pear shaped, whether it be bean selection, roast profile, choice of milk, experience of the barista, machine maintenance, grind selection etc, and so on... The way I figure it is that its the responsibility of the cafe proprietor to quality control check as many variables as possible along the way, which of course is not always possible, and sometimes we get it wrong, but there are safety checks that happen along the way, along with staff development, palate knowledge and structure, and asking the customer what they want and endeavouring to provide it, which help to eliminate some of the variables along the way Do I feel that its my job to tell a cafe what they're doing wrong? In most instances, not. But if it seems obvious to me that the coffee I'm drinking is a slight aberration on what I ordered, or what I would consider to be the industry 'norm,' i will most certainly take it up with the establishment in question Having said that I just dont like 'green' or overly fruity / high acid espresso based coffees, at least not with milk, and will generally avoid places that preference this kind coffee my five cents worth after two double espressos! ACg

Jonathon · September 2013

Great discussion guys. My simple rules for giving feedback are fairly consistent with Pat's above: If it's excellent, say so Everyone's a winner and I'm sure even the very best baristas like to receive positive feedback. If it's a place that tries hard and usually delivers the goods, but misses the mark with a particular coffee, politely tell them what's wrong, eg it's over-extracted, milk too cold, etc. On the very few occasions I've said something like this the response has always been thanks for the feedback and an offer to give me another drink. But I would only say this if I was a regular. (I drink 2-3 coffees a day and I reckon I've said it 2-3 times in past 5 years) If it's crap, but you should have guessed that from the barista, machine, grinder, beans, etc then don't say anything. They clearly either don't know or care how to make a good coffee, so you'll just sound like a pretentious knob.

Janlab · September 2013

on 1379379918:

In any case regardless, the best form of defence in the universe with this kind of stuff is to shut the $#^(*@ up....and it will all go away. ... And therefore I would say, rather than asking "should you ever post negative reviews" I would counter with..." Should anyone ever post ANONYMOUS reviews"? I think posters have to be prepared to put their name to their posts.

as to the first statement; very good advice! to protest usually heaps more coals. as to the second, agree that an anonymous review loses credibility, since the reviewer may in fact be the cafe owner next door! but to go back to the initial question asked..."Should you ever post negative reviews?"... that is different from "Should you give negative feedback?" the first is supposed to be objective, by a person or group who knows what they are talking about, and is not about criticising, but informing the rest of us. the second is totally subjective, based on a single experience, often by a regular guy/girl, who din't like the coffee/food/or whatever, and is of no little to the rest of us. i'll shut up now.

FreshCoffee2 · September 2013

not at all (shut up ) I thought that was good comment

We DO have our thinking caps on today!

admin · September 2013

just thought I'd add this; have had a number of queries on Twitter about the qualification of cafe reviewers, and we have long agreed that this is a v. important question [as we believe not all publications take this as seriously as us].... Mark Dundan [of Seven Seeds, de Clieu and a number of other Melbourne cafes' fame] was particularly pointed on this issue, even asking the question - 'should all cafe reviewers be Q-graders - a very good question! We had hoped that some more people would take advantage of the space offered here to have a full debate [remember each post in twitter is limited to 140 characters!] however so far no-one [from the twitterati] seems to have taken us up on the offer. Note: although we're not an 'industry' magazine, we should also say we have a huge amount of respect for Mark for all his achievements in the Australian industry. Anyway, given this all had to be done via twitter, let me try and put together our sequence of tweets, which necessarily had to run over 14 tweets [this is a more-or-less correct compilation]: "Let me start off by saying we welcome this discussion and appreciate it is something that has long been important to you Mark, but wonder if Twitter is the right forum

Jonathon · September 2013

This is the best thread I've seen on any of the Aussie coffee forums in a long time! Excuse my ignorance, but what's a Q-grader?

hiphipharar · September 2013

on 1379469806:

This is the best thread I've seen on any of the Aussie coffee forums in a long time! Excuse my ignorance, but what's a Q-grader?

I didn't know either. I know it's a hackneyed response but Google gave me the answer in 5 seconds: At the backbone of the Q Grading System are Licensed Q Graders, professional cuppers accredited by the Coffee Quality Institute. These Q Graders must pass a rigorous three-day exam to earn their certification, comprising of 22 sections on coffee related subjects, such as green grading, roast identification, coffee cupping, sensory skills and sensory triangulation. There are currently over 1,000 Licensed Q Graders worldwide.

Koffee_Kosmo · September 2013

I don't have any bias to calling a spade a spade Especially when the reviewers are at the top echelon in the coffee industry It could be argued that they are getting a free service albeit anonymous, by the leading tasting pallets in the country What can that business do if it receives a poor review - Three things 1) go forward by retesting and strive to archive better results 2) complain loudly 3) do nothing and hope it all goes away A further note Most reviews by lay people normally judge on other factors like food, ambience, and the list goes on KK

FreshCoffee2 · September 2013

As has been mentioned by Admin a couple of posts back, Crema already uses a "panel" of "well qualified" industry people on cafe coffee reviews. That said, there is no doubt that a Q grader and his/her palate will bring an extra dimension to a review.....but we are talking cafes / espresso / caffe latte or cappuccino if you are really going to review what most of the clients in cafes are drinking...and of course that means that at the upper level of cafe coffee production, cafes should be offering a separate "black" espresso coffee (in Oz anyway) to what they might use in all the milk coffees (another topic in itself where people can agree or disagree.....a great espresso blend or S.O. does not necessarily make the best capp / lartay...and then there is what regular punters want or think is a good coffee.....subjective subjective subjective....not to mention the effect on all of it of the expertise of the person operating the grinder, group handle and machine!) The question then is, what are we really reviewing, THE coffee (given a standardised, best practice brewing method) or the ability of the venue to make a "good coffee", and is it the same as what the end clients want or are happy with? Is the use of Q graders over the top for this? All of the above are random thoughts, not mentioned for the purpose of upsetting any Q graders amongst us,

just to indicate that there is more to reviewing a cafe cuppa than the ability to be able to flash a (nevertheless very noteworthy) coffee industry qualification..? Edit: This arvo I put the finishing touches on and completed testing a roast profile I designed for my main roasting machine, for a major client's signature coffee. This requires (for a computer PLC controlled roasting machine) you to design and programme in an initial roast profile (according to your experience, expertise and ability), then to roast and cup the result, make changes according to the character you find in the cup, and go round in this circle until you are happy with whats in the cup at the end. The beans and profile, result in a roasted coffee that the client wants and likes. Reviewers may not like it (?), but the client, and his clients, do. Where do we all go from there then? This is not to denigrate the topic at hand, just to show that there may not be any definitive answer to it all other than for people / reviewers to be respectful of others business.

admin · September 2013

just an addendum to the debate - it has become obvious from a lot of the comments of the twitterati that they think Crema is an 'industry' mag. and therefore shouldn't criticise [give a negative review] any cafes ... in fact, for the record that's a misconception - we're a consumer mag for aficionados/those interested in coffee.

FreshCoffee2 · September 2013

on 1379500980:

...an 'industry' mag....shouldn't criticise [give a negative review] any cafes ...

Should tweets criticizing crema (per quote), that come from people that dont know crema isnt an industry publication, be taken seriously?

admin · September 2013

ha,ha unfortunately there's no choice [and everyone's free to have their opinions from our point-of-view, regardless], but no, Twitter doesn't have an 'industry' or 'consumer' button! A :pan

admin · September 2013

on 1379541621:

ha,ha unfortunately there's no choice [and everyone's free to have their opinions from our point-of-view, regardless], but no, Twitter doesn't have an 'industry' or 'consumer' button! A :pan

Jokes aside FC, what I was getting at is that I think many people were shocked that as a magazine supposedly supported by the industry, we had the gall to criticise a cafe!! For the record, we've never been supported by the 'industry', much less do we solicit advertising from cafes - something which [unfortunately!] hasn't been lucrative, but I feel gives us a fair degree of impartiality.

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