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Is there something wrong with my coffee taste?

lmzlmz
edited January 1970 in How to improve your coffee
Hi Guys,
I am chasing the ultimate bean/roast/pour to suit my taste as a french espresso (short black) NO SUGAR drinker. This means a much smoother espresso than the one in Italy (I was there in June) where they swallow it in no time in the morning to get going.

I have tried the usual CAMPOS, BELLISSIMO, VENEZIANO (...) in Brisbane but their beans quality/ roast freshness was a bit hit and miss...

I went to one of the highest rated coffee shop in Brisbane today LTD ESPRESSO BAR, I had a chat about my taste and they gave me an espresso which was still too strong and bitter to MY TASTE.

Just got some beans today Campos cup of excellence Rwanda N8. Roast date 16/12. First pour was still on the stong/bitter side for me.

So, I am after a short black, on the sweet fruity side with good crema and nice after taste without sugar help...

Am I asking too much???

Any ideas?

Thanks a lot
Laurent
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Comments

  • UNMUNM
    Nope, not asking too much. Similar to my requirements.  I  do  enjoy some  variety in my  short blacks of a morning. Tbh, most well roasted beans  can produce what you are after if you get rest of the process just right. What equipment are you using at home? Or are you after recommendations for cafes that can make coffees you might  enjoy?
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  • Brett HBrett H
    Welcome Imz and absolutely not.  You don't mention if you'll be drinking at home.  If so, then cruise over to MyCuppa and get the Berry Apocalypse.  I'm sure others will chime in with pertinent questions about machinery, roast dates and bean storage but I'm a quick fix kinda guy... Welcome!
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  • Koffee_KosmoKoffee_Kosmo
    No it's not a bad question  :thumb: and welcome to the Crema Forum 
    So, I am after a short black, on the sweet fruity side with good crema and nice after taste without sugar help...
    Not sure if all that is achievable - what I mean to say is "it's hard to get sweet " in a short black If you want fruity try a blend of Mild African and PNG beans If you like I can roast you some to try KK
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  • mycuppamycuppa
    Welcome to the forum. This topic is something I've spent many hundreds of extra hours working on over the last 6 months - engineering espresso. I traveled so many paths I could write an entire book about this subject. Here, I offer some thoughts for you Laurent. 1. A good espresso does not need sugar - in fact it ruins the experience. 2. Sweetness is an absolute requirement for espresso. Bitterness is a sign of either a problem with the roast not being designed/intended (probably a bias towards milk-based espresso to suit the broad majority)..........or the extraction is wrong (in my experience I generally encounter both factors at play in varying proportions). 3. Italian preparation is vastly different to Australia - I would say it's literally very difficult (or even impossible) to compare local AUS versus Italy in respect to espresso - they are poles apart. You may find something close, but it's rare indeed. 4. Fruit is a function of the roast and the beans. Many beans have inherent fruit and it's basically what the roaster then does with that character - either to preserve or alter the outcome to suit a purpose. 5. Espresso extraction is a craft that few baristas master - many instead focus on their art (again, to please the majority). Just because Cafe XYZ gets a ridiculous amount of rave reviews does not mean they can pour a good (or consistently good) espresso. We see this in Melbourne at many places that are supposedly ranked in the Top 10........all too easy to botch espresso in the cruelest possible way. I sometimes wonder if the reviewer must have ordered a Larrhh-tey with their poached eggs in order to rank so high. 6. Light roasted coffees tend to require a longer rest period to stabilize (this does not apply to all conditions). If you are using beans from the 16/12 they may not have fully developed as yet - but that is related to the roast profile of which I have no idea for those you have noted. 7. You may do yourself a favor to seek a light roasted African or a Natural processed coffee such as a high quality Brazil, etc. These will have higher levels of fruit and sweetness if roasted correctly. Be careful of sourness or over-acid situations, particularly if you are using home equipment. 8. Flavor (or intensity) is a function of the shot dynamics. If you are finding it too intense, ask for a lower-dosage shot and/or a longer running shot. At home, you can also play around with skipping the first 7 or 8 seconds of the shot by introducing your cup under the spout after the shot has been running - this is a trick Italian baristas perform to reduce sourness in the cup. Here is an article I wrote about roast depths, flavors and the resultant coffees. http://www.mycuppa.com.au/light-medium-or-dark/ Good luck on your quest - it's not an easy path to take.
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  • lmzlmz
    So there is a Santa, indeed! I am so glad you guys understand what I am trying to explain... Thanks for sharing. I will try the Berry Apocalypse. Medium roast seems to suit my taste when fresh. I should have added: - home use only - I have just upgraded coffee machine to a Lelit PLPLUS which has got 600ml single boiler with PID for temperature control. From my extensive research this should pour a decent espresso, hopefully as good as a HX machine but for milk based drink...different story as steam capability is limited - I have tried home roasting in the past (popcorn maker with homemade pipe exhaust) but found batch size too small, first crack too quick and chaff collection a nightmare! - Once crazy Xmas is done, I would like to try home roasting again... This is where I would LOVE to take your offer mister KoffeeKosmo and maybe get some beans/knowledge/kkto from you. I also work at the Brisbane Markets not far at all from Boyland Avenue... I agree that I will not get a 'sweet' coffee without sugar but I am trying to explain that my taste is all about flavour and therefore there is a very fine line between a good espresso and the one for the sink... Thank you very much my cuppa.com.au for sharing your experience. I will try the Italian trick. I have already orders some capsules for our shop and I will definitely try any roasted blend you shall recommend. Sorry for the long post, but where there is knowledge and passion I am sure you will forgive my boldness attitude. Thanks. Laurent
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  • Koffee_KosmoKoffee_Kosmo
    That is a coincidence I worked at the Brisbane markets myself, and afterwords was a Fruiterer ( not named Con ) for about 10 years, but that was a long time ago  And I live close to the markets Mycuppas tip of letting the first of the drips pour away and then place the cup to catch that espresso nectar is something I have recommended in the past  KK
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  • mycuppamycuppa
    Laurent, You may want to wait for the 1st week in Jan. There is something new and exciting that will become available and may better suit your needs. Berry Apocalypse really needs a dash of milk to enjoy unless you are a gun on your gear. *** WARNING - Shameless plug below **** http://www.mycuppa.com.au/redemption-of-the-spro.html
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  • lmzlmz
    music to my ears...
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  • FreshCoffee2FreshCoffee2
    Just adding to the excellent responses that others have given. Simple answer to you question = No. However... Dont for 1 second discount the importance of being in good command of your coffee making equipment. Thats not just the operational side of things, its the level of understanding required...getting the grind right, getting the dose right, have good technique, for the beans at hand....which changes as the beans age or as you change from one supply to the next. Someone who does not have a good understanding of the coffee making experience, will produce soso coffee from beans that are said to deliver "liquid gold", and operators that have a great understanding will produce great results from far "lesser" coffee beans. I note your use of the terms "bitter" and "sweet". In the context of sweetness from a sugar point of view, coffee can never be "sweet". Sweetness in coffee is a different concept to sugariness. And many people will call a coffee *bitter* when what they mean it is high in acidity (and well balanced acidity is a definite plus in an espresso).....OR, a cup of coffee may really be *bitter*, because the operator made it that way, through a lesser understanding of all things coffee making.  Bitterness in the coffee bean supply is commonly caused by over roasting, which leaves a kind of ashy character OR, a cuppa (regardless of the bean supply) can easily be made bitter by having used a grind that is more coarse than it should be for the application, or by brewing through too many millilitres of espresso in the cup.....OR in the case of using a machine with PID control, by brewing at a higher temperature than is suitable for any particular bean supply. In any case, and noting you have a Pid'd  espresso machine, you can use the PID to experiment even further by brewing up and down through a range of temperatures for any given supply of coffee beans, and also you can vary the amount of brew from say, 15 ml to 30 ml. Somewhere in there for any given coffee, you will get a great cuppa. So its not just all about finding some kind of technically superior coffee bean supply (nirvana  ;D )....you have to know what to do with it and ultimately in coffee business, we understand that mostly when someone complains about having tried an espresso that he or she found to be too strong or bitter, it usually means the brew was made too weak (refer above, grind too coarse OR low dose of grinds in filter basket, or too much volume in cup). "Coffee Psych 101" : very often *too strong/bitter* is caused by the client himself advising the espresso machine operator ("barista") that he/she doesnt like the espresso to be too strong or bitter....a barista without a full complement of skills then proceeds to make a weak espresso, which gives the client eggzackery what the client did not want..... This is common enough in low end "cafes". An espresso (or ristretto or whatever) made properly by a good operator may well be "strong" in the sense of having high TDS (total dissolved solids) or a full complement of the available caffeine BUT.....it is usually (if also made with a good supply of beans) super smooth, with good body and well balanced acidity and "sweetness". IE......if the coffee tastes strong and bitter and is possibly just not well made, odds are you need to make it "stronger" (read *properly*) and it should smooth out and adjust beautifully. Apologies if you already have a good level of understanding of all this  :) I am not sure we know what your coffee making skills are like, and I hope this balances the discussion concerning your taste buds or being able to find a great supply of beans. Regardless of whether you're using  unleaded or PREMIUM unleaded in your car, you're still the driver  ;) What I am adding to the discussion is then....have you considered an espresso making class with a reputable trainer?     
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  • Brett HBrett H
    What a Masterclass! Thank you Attilio and Jeff. My brain is now full today! Wonderful stuff guys!
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  • Ol GrumpyOl Grumpy
    Absolutely, top shelf thread. Thoroughly enjoyable! Just like a good brew!
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  • lmzlmz
    Thanks guys, me too learning curve is going through the roof :laugh: I really enjoyed reading Jeff's article regarding light or dark roasting. I agree with you Attilio in the needs of better brewing practices. Before I used to think, my ageing basic equipment was not worth investing too much time / research for the perfect brew. However with this new coffee machine I have NO excuses. And I have noticed that dosage can change considerably the outcome. I am still unsure wether 1 x 7g scoop of ground coffee is enough though... Can anyone recommend a low key coffee training in Brisbane where I can concentrate on espresso brewing rather than latte art? Thanks Laurent
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  • Koffee_KosmoKoffee_Kosmo
    I can teach you for free when I come to visit in the new year KK
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  • Brett HBrett H
    on 1387794235:
    Thanks guys, me too learning curve is going through the roof :laugh: I really enjoyed reading Jeff's article regarding light or dark roasting. I agree with you Attilio in the needs of better brewing practices. Before I used to thing my aging basic equipment was not worth investing too much time / research for the perfect brew. However with this new coffee machine I have NO excuses. I have noticed that dosage can change considerably the outcome. I am still unsure wether 1 x 7g scoop of ground coffee is enough though... Can anyone recommend a low key coffee training in Brisbane where I can concentrate on espresso brewing rather than latte art? Thanks Laurent
    Merlo in the Valley used to offer a bring your own equipment course.  Give the hem a try!
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  • Brett HBrett H
    on 1387794535:
    I can teach you for free when I come to visit in the new year KK
    Or an even better option thanks to the generous and talented KK!
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  • lmzlmz
    on 1387794774:
    Merlo in the Valley used to offer a bring your own equipment course.  Give the hem a try!
    DiBella Bowen Hills does a free training with BYO equipment. I did it in the past when I struggled frothing milk. It did help with the brewing process but did not identify my true query. These guys have great passion but -without disrespect- I have a feeling this is commercially minded.
    on 1387794824:
    Or an even better option thanks to the generous and talented KK!
    Thanks KK. It has been a long time since I have not been looking for a 'date' like this :) Your generosity is much appreciated. Thanks all for your great replies and Joyeux No
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  • UNMUNM
    given that you have a PID machine, you have pretty good control available to you. Trouble is, it can be tempting to change lots of things before you fully understand what each does. This can actually slow down the learning process. I have previously had really nice short blacks from Jeff's berry apocalypse, so it can work without milk. Thing is most roasters primarily roast for milk drinkers, not straight coffee drinkers.  Can't blame them - it must be 90%+ of the market, so they would be mad to do otherwise.  My prescription is to choose a roaster and a blend that others believe makes decent short blacks and then stick with it for a while (several kilos) even if first experiences are not that wonderful as you will learn how to get the best out of that bean by varying other aspects of the extraction. Getting grind, dose and tamp right to get a rich crema and a good pour rate is a good start, then taste it once you are happy it looks good as it pours. If it looks like crap as it pours, don't offend your taste buds. Twiddling temperature is something for later - try changing about 4 degrees either way from your start point and see what difference it makes, then go for finer changes as required. When I used a pump machine with 58mm portafilter, I typically used to dose around 19gram of coffee for a final shot that weighed about 30gram and took around 35 seconds IIRC. I never bothered about volume as the amount of crema meant it was too variable to be meaningful. Once I became comfortable with my machine, I didn't bother weighing shots unless there was some reason to. Nowadays, I have a manual lever (Arrarex Caravel) and it can only hold 16gram ground coffee maximum - sometimes an extraction can take 60seconds and they are still excellent, other times 35 second for an extraction. Each machine is different - I only mention these to give you an idea how much things can vary, so don't worry if yours is different. Above all -  enjoy the  learning experience.
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  • FreshCoffee2FreshCoffee2
    on 1387796228:
    DiBella Bowen Hills does a free training with BYO equipment. I did it in the past when I struggled frothing milk. It did help with the brewing process but did not identify my true query. These guys have great passion but -without disrespect- I have a feeling this is commercially minded. Thanks KK. It has been a long time since I have not been looking for a 'date' like this :) Your generosity is much appreciated. Thanks all for your great replies and Joyeux No
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  • UNMUNM
    I didn't see any implied criticism in the 'commercially minded' comment,  just a statement if fact,  although it is no  surprise a commercial entity would have a commercial focus. Oh and the comments about strong/bitter coffee are important. A straight espresso is by its nature extremely strong, or perhaps a better word would be 'intense'.  I am still enjoying my morning ristretto and that is over one  hour later.  People often  complain about 'too strong' when one or other aspect of the coffee is out of balance for THEIR preference. I started off with a gaggia classic with PID and that was to improve temperature stability on a machine that could swing 15 degrees. That alone made it worthwhile, but yes dinnertimes they are a marketing gimmick that users don't really need or use. I don't know how  much difference it makes on the lelit, but  for small single boilers with a powerful element it almost certainly improves temperature stability which is no bad thing, Really though, one of the most important things is to understand how changes in your technique affect the end result. If you change the beans you are using because you can't get the flavor you want at first, you will find it really hard to learn. New beans take a while to dial in. Relying on a quality commercial roaster helps here because consistency of product is their business. Simply spending a little time on your machine with someone experienced at making espresso coffee is great because you will discover things you didn't even know to ask
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  • lmzlmz
    I now understand there are a few business owners on this forum involved in coffee making. I shall choose my words carefully... However there is no criticism intended from me in the 'commercially minded' comment; I am too involved in running a family business and when I did the free training at DB I ended up buying around $100 worth of equipment (tamper, mat, bin...) that I still use and enjoy today. Even though it is a great free training service indeed, for me it does not address my specific needs of learning as I can already pour a -let say- better than drinkable espresso (much better than most coffee shops here). I do not mean to offend anyone putting their money time and energy in running a business! The reason for me to buy a single boiler with PID was because of pre-heat time, cost and energy saving over HX due to minimal milk frothing. I got the bigger 600ml boiler and PID to try to get more temperature stability and control (so that I can focus on the other part of the process). I understand that a small single boiler can sometime get too hot when starting the pour. If there was evidence for me to get a better shot with an HX  I would have saved the extra money (and I still will). Hope this explains my misleading comments I am glad and very thankful to read your comments / advice or words of wisdom:):) Wishing you guys a Merry Christmas. Laurent
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  • C-manC-man
    Did anyone ask what sort of grinder she has? This thread is really good reading, i intend to go down that short black track now myself I have only ever had 2 short blacks that I could ever drink, they were really really good but very rare, perfectly smooth without any bitterness so I do know it can be done. I will be ordering some of Jeff's new Short black roast as soon as it is ready, hopefully that will make my task easier. Cheers!
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  • C-manC-man
    I just pulled  a dozen tight shots all ending up in the sink with a burnt bitter taste I finally nailed one using MM beans, it was about a 22 sec. sort of fast pour but came out good zero bitterness, oily,  with roasted sunflower or sesame seed notes, it actually opened up even more halfway through it. gave a nice euphoric  high too, different to a white coffee. I have a theory that too tight an extraction allows too much heat on the puck for short blacks? Or maybe because the MM was roaster lighter a few weeks ago at Lacehams?
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  • lmzlmz
    Hi Guys, a quick update: I have followed Fresh Coffee recommendation and worked on my technique using same PID temp and beans. Indeed I have noticed a fine line between a drinkable shot, a great one and a 'down the sink it goes' one. A small variation in dosage / grind / tamp seems to make a huge difference to the outcome. Also I DO NOT understand why when I change from a single basket to a double basket I need to change de grind finer to get the 25 sec extraction... Should I use a single or double basket for my short black? thanks Laurent
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  • Koffee_KosmoKoffee_Kosmo
    Re - single / double baskets Until you are proficient in using your machine use a double basket for single shots, then when you are confident use the single KK
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  • C-manC-man
    One  thing I discovered  too slow a shot gives a burnt taste in a  short black, while still good in a flat white I would aim for about 20-25 second pour using  a double
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  • lmzlmz
    Thanks C-mon. I went to Coles last night and bought 1kg of the cheapest beans I could find (wait, wait...). Then I did 1h30min of pouring shots to get the right tamp/dosage/grind to achieve 25sec. Thanks to KK I got my dosage pretty right. Grind is the last variable I want to adjust once I have my technique consistent. I found that TAMPING hard / soft does make a bit of a difference. Q1 - Should tamping be very firm (12-15kgs recommended on google) or more gentle (6kgs). I have used a scale to tamp and it seems to me that the recommended 15kgs is A LOT OF TAMPING. Any advice here? Q2 - Do you start the timer when you flick the pour switch or when it starts pouring in the cup? Q3 - Should the portafilter be firmly locked or just a gentle one hand pull? Maybe my machine being brand new it makes it a bit harder... Thanks again for your help... my learning is going through the roof! Also a special thanks to Paul (KK) that came to meet me and gave me precious advice on shot pouring. Very much appreciated. And I cannot wait for these new 'Redemption of the Spro' beans from mycuppa ordered last week... Laurent
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  • Brett HBrett H
    Q1... Lots of schools of thought but I go for a firm tamp to compact, then polish the top knowing full well I can't put anywhere near 9 atmospheres of pressure through that baby with my elbow.  Some go for a finer grind light tamp.  Be consistent with whichever you choose!  Q2...  Time from the moment you flick the switch but watch the shot then taste the shot.  Be guided by taste first and sell other things second.  Watch shots on YouTube and at specialty cafes to practise looking at the progression of the extraction process. Q3... Go easy on that group head.  As long as the PF doesn't slip out or leak it is right.  Lock it in but if you're worried about being too light keep your hand on the PF handle when you pull the shot for safety.  If it spits out it won't fall on something precious like a pet, child or heavens forbid a kitchen tile that can't be easily replaced.  That'd be just the worst thing imaginable. Enjoy!
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  • C-manC-man
    the thing  is, even if  you dial in supermarket beans It will all be different with good  fresh beans, fresh beans will run much slower and not require such a fine grind to slow them down. Good to practice anyway. Q-3  lock the  portafilter over until you feel it seal snugly against the seal so it will not leak,  Like Brett says don't over do it but seat in in there good.
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  • FreshCoffee2FreshCoffee2
    on 1388822931:
    Q1 - Should tamping be very firm (12-15kgs recommended on google) or more gentle (6kgs). I have used a scale to tamp and it seems to me that the recommended 15kgs is A LOT OF TAMPING. Any advice here? Q2 - Do you start the timer when you flick the pour switch or when it starts pouring in the cup? Q3 - Should the portafilter be firmly locked or just a gentle one hand pull? Maybe my machine being brand new it makes it a bit harder...
    1) the idea is not necessaily to tamp to any specified weight, but whatever you do, to do it consistently. This comes with practice and of cpourse you can use a set of bathroom scales to check yourself with when you start. The reason for consistency in tamping weight, is because this directly affects the amount of resistance in the puck, which affects the rate of flow of the coffee through into the cup . Working backwards, your tamping pressure affects your grind. If you are a consistently light tamper, your grind will be a little "finer" than if you were a heavy tamper in which case your grind (for a similar rate of flow through the puck) would be a little more coarse... And after that it doesnt matter so much because it is will all depend on what you think is "good" ih the character of the cuppa. 2) already answered above; 3) What you "feel"  when you lock in the group handle will be dependent on the type of group and group handle (the factory machining of each thereof), and the type of group seal (under cup washer or UCW). In a new machine, sometimes the group handle is a little hard to lock in or doesnt go in very far. Sometimes this can be improved by fitting another group seal (different supply, compound or size). But it will change with use.    You will find that if you have done your bit well (grind/dose/tamp), even if you cant lock the group handle in very far, it will most probably stay in place and work properly (ie it wont blow off even if it doesnt seem like its gone on far enough), and as already stated it will improve with use. Hope that helps. KK....you've done a really nice thing  ;)
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  • C-manC-man
    with tamping, seems to me once the  puck is compressed with normal tamping, (you can  feel this),  it becomes  solid and even will all my 90kgs of weight it doesn't change after that. so all the difference is in the first little bit I would  imagine. Keeping a level puck is important too.
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