Espresso machine specific roasting

cosmic_couple22 · July 2014

Hi all

As you all know I have a new addition in the home roastery, having such a machine that does things a little different has made me ask the question of my own roasting. Do I need to develop machine specific roast profiles to further enhance the capabilities of the machine? and is this something roasters have to consider more with new or reworked thinking being injected into the top end espresso machines, such as the Slayer, Strada, Synesso, Spirit etc.

My thinking is that as we are able to extract more oils out of said coffee using these machines or changing techniques (pressure profiling etc) degree of roast will be even more noticeable in the cup ie: the darker roasts will reflect more of the roasting flavours, bitters enhanced, deeper chocolates and so forth and vice verse on the lighter roasts more distinguished fruits and acidity. Also leading to being able to pull good espresso from lighter roasts that traditionally we would have left for the manual brewing methods.

Would really like some perspective and opinions.

Chester

Brett H · July 2014

Isn't the idea that the bean determines the roast and the machine is designed to cope? Roast to the best profile for the bean and the rest will follow!

cosmic_couple22 · July 2014

Thats the traditional thinking BrettH and there is arguments with some roasters that this approach is a lazy approach and we should be seeing what else we can unlock and release from the bean through manipulation of a roast profile. Takes me back to my original question with better understanding of the extraction process and improved equipment have we enabled another mechanism to get even more from that bean. In this ever developing world of coffee do roasters have to have a better understanding of the equipment said beans are going to be extracted on and adjust roast profiles to suit that differing equipment? Chester

Brett H · July 2014

Yep... I see... Sort of.... I agree that a Syphon roast is different to a stove pot etc. But as well as changing up the roasts in this case we also change up the beans. Would you want a light roasted Syphon of MM? My thinking is that the minute you start roasting for a slayer doesn't that negate the benefit of the flexibility of that machine. Isn't the point of my PID to make adjustments to suit different beans, blends and roasts. Surely if I aimed for roast profiles that tasted great at 91 deg am I not better off getting a simpler, cheaper machine set to 91 deg? Okay, I'm not quite seeing it yet but be patient with me. I'll do some more reading and less talki

cosmic_couple22 · July 2014

So as an experiment Lightly roasted natural (1:30 minutes development) put through my Mums Sunbeam 6910 resulting shot is thin, grassy/sour represents under-extraction (no amount of playing with grind or dose could make a great coffee). Throw the same bean through the Slayer much finer grind, adjust temp to 94, low pressure infusion for 40 seconds ramp to 9 bar for 20 seconds, tailed off for a further 8 seconds = viscous fruit bomb god shot. Same bean two very different results and only attributed to machine specifics. So my hypothesis is roast profiles could be further developed if we know the capabilities of the equipment that will be used for brewing said bean. We apply it to manual brewing so why wouldn't the principle be relevant to espresso? I know I am probably over thinking it, but my current upgrade has lead me to consider the merit of the question and when I have such control over my own product it's worth the conversation. Happy to come to any conclusion, even if that is one that says I'm off with the fairies in my thinking.

And we never lose anything from challenging our own thinking. Chester

Brett H · July 2014

It is a very interesting line of thought! Keep us posted in regards to your findings.

Koffee_Kosmo · July 2014

I feel that contact with the puck water temperature has a greater bearing in the flavour that is produced But that also coincides with the depth of the roast Espresso machines ideal set temperature band is generally 89 C to 92 C Just on second crack = Longer pre infusion and will tolerate a higher water temp On second crack = Coincides with most espresso machines ideal temperature band with or without pre-infusion option After second crack = Will tolerate ideal to lower temperature band (89 ) - or you run the risk of burnt tasting coffee Flavour wise - it's my opinion that a flavour is already in the bean and is primarily dependant in the growing conditions and location You will get 3 different flavours with the ideal roast triangle but you will also need three different espresso brewing approaches One more but important thing - degassing times post roast is not talked about enough Degassing times will be longer with lighter roasts before a bean reaches it's god shot moment KK

derrilex · July 2014

I think it's a very slippery slope and it should be abandoned before anyone else gets wind of it. Machine specific roasting can only create an elitist group of uber hipsters. Just pretend it never happened CC and have a lie down. :rofl:

cosmic_couple22 · July 2014

ohh sudden urge to grow a goattie and run out and buy some skinny jeans and thick rim glasses. AAGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH hipsteritis

derrilex · July 2014

Don't forget the sleeve tatt

C-man · August 2014

Chester I like your thinking, that is what keeps things moving forward and you are in a unique position to test it all and you should. I can add to that bean density, soft and hard beans another major consideration, actually I feel the first place to start from for both roasting and extraction, especially with Variable extraction pressures that the Slayer is designed for. tight pants and glasses would help too,

cosmic_couple22 · August 2014

Absolutely Cman I measure the moisture content and bean density of everything I roast. Having this information first puts you in a good place for planning the roast profile. Great roasting is far more than just lets dump them in and when they look brown enough dump them out. As you say roasting is just the first stage density to extraction time/temp relationship is another that is a little overlooked. Now where are my skinny jeans, have to go and get a new tattoo. Chester

mwcalder · August 2014

Can't wait to see/taste some results Mr. Slayer! Like I said when we chatted, roasting for a P.P. machine is definitely worth looking into and will probably come through soon. However, it seems that Perger, Kaminsky and Rao are putting more focus on the roast itself. The argument seems to be that if your espresso doesn't taste good with an EK43 at a 20% extraction, then it's the roasters fault. A lot of emphasis has been put on the rate of rise throughout the roast from Kaminsky, then the development time percentage from Rao and extraction percentage from Perger. When we nail all three in perfect harmony, roast after roast, then we should be in coffee nirvana! With this being said, I haven't yet read Scott's new coffee roasting book but I'm sure his principles remain much the same! Keen to get my paws on it. M

cosmic_couple22 · August 2014

All baristas blame the roaster Michael that's a given :rofl: With more emphasis being on respecting the inherent flavours of the bean and the nuances of origin potentially shining through roasters are spending far more time in understanding the production process of each product. With anything, a better understanding of raw product will/should result in developing best/better practices for the end product. Currently I am putting more emphasis on the drying stage where the changes to the bean can be controlled in a more predictable linear process instead of extending the development time post FC where the bean is more volatile but still achieving the in cup results that I had planned. Education is everything for me, read everything I can on roasting, processing, growing and talk with as many roasters and good baristas as I can then go home and play in the roaster develop and underpin skills. Interesting saying about extraction & grind via EK43 as one of the trends in Melbourne is roast profiles specific to the attributes the EK43 can bring, which really only supports my original thinking of machinery based roast profile design but with emphasis on the grinder rather than the espresso machine. However we still have to consider the majority of users that have a HX machine and a mini on the bench and produce great product that will work across a great array of hardware. That's why I love the Slayer I can test my profiles in numerous extraction profiles on the one machine from a lever style shot to straight out 9 bar and anything in-between. Look forward to see what Scott has come up with, he is always a good read. Chester

Brett H · August 2014

Interesting reading this! Does Slayer do a one group for home or is there a similar variable profile machine for the home user? Not the Vesuvius... !

cosmic_couple22 · August 2014

Yes BrettH Slayer single group number 9 just arrived in Perth I think.

Brett H · August 2014

Googling now.... Time to mortgage the children :rofl:

cosmic_couple22 · August 2014

The question is BrettH Can your children make you great coffee everyday? :D Chester

Brett H · August 2014

Just seem the price. $12750 from coffee machines Queensland. Might consider it when we've paid off the house. Next.millennium. :rofl:

derrilex · August 2014

on 1408838328:

Absolutely Cman I measure the moisture content and bean density of everything I roast. Chester

And how exactly are you doing this ? Janka test would be hard to do on a bean and as for the moisture content, are you roasting sample batches and weighing the difference green to brown ?

cosmic_couple22 · August 2014

Moisture Mac Pro kit D Attachment not found.

derrilex · August 2014

Close ups and video footage in action please.

borat123 · August 2014

Or with one of these... http://www.shopmoisturetesters.com/shore-model-930-moisture-tester-for-coffee/

C-man · August 2014

getting very sophisticated

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