Ponte Vecchio Lusso - advice please?

Brett H · February 2015

My advice, cut your losses and run! Sell it as is to recoup the deposit on a new machine. Start a thread here on Crema if you want advice that's not linked to margins

Moon · February 2015

on 1424859314:

My advice, cut your losses and run!

Moon Waterhouse here 500-1 Odds on going down to the Supermarket and buying a jar of Nescafe 250-1 Odds on talking the home financier into parting with $2.000 for a new coffee machine 50-1 Odds on selling the machine once fixed ,, knowing that there is NO new one coming to replace it 20-1 Odds on talking the financier into covering repair bill on wounded PV Lusso 5-1 Odds on none of the above happening 2-1 Odds on having to make do with whatever he's drinking now for the foreseeable future EVEN Odds on LRM visiting a local Cafe more often to enjoy a good quality cup of coffee

Kevohere · February 2015

Going on the content in the previous posts, I think you've nailed it with this market analysis Moon Waterhouse. ::)

Koffee_Kosmo · February 2015

Both Kev and I have a Strega My 2 cents Sell Lusso and take out a small loan to purchase a quality machine ( new, display model or pre loved ) The new machine must be built to prosumer or commercial specs Then enjoy for many many years KK

Brett H · February 2015

Excellent advice KK. Compared to local cafe prices you'll be ahead in no time with the home cafe. Or, ou could buy the picture of the lever machine I'm currently seeing on every post. Is anyone else seeing it? What spam is this??

Moon · February 2015

on 1424953634:

Or, you could buy the picture of the lever machine I'm currently seeing on every post. Is anyone else seeing it? What spam is this??

I'm not seeing it .. and I have my adblock turned off. Is it a beautiful picture of a Ponte Vecchio Lusso? I don't think LRM would get much joy out of hanging up a poster of a nice brand new Bezeera Strega lever machine on his wall. I'm guessing it would bring a tear to his eye every time he sees it. >:D I'd love a Strega too. :thumb: Maybe next time?

Dry_bean. · February 2015

on 1424909287:

Both Kev and I have a Strega My 2 cents Sell Lusso and take out a small loan to purchase a quality machine ( new, display model or pre loved ) The new machine must be built to prosumer or commercial specs Then enjoy for many many years KK

Nothing to do with a Strega or a Lusso, however, in October 2009 I purchase a new Bezzera Domus Galatea , paid $2800 for it, the only money I have spent on it has been a couple of new baskets and a new group head seal. Have just done the sums, works out it has cost me the princely sum of a bit over $1.40 a day. Perhaps I've been fortunate, however I like to think that my TLC has contributed to the trouble free run I have experienced. Would I buy another Bezzera machine? in an instant. :thumb:

Lacehim · February 2015

on 1424953634:

Excellent advice KK. Compared to local cafe prices you'll be ahead in no time with the home cafe. Or, ou could buy the picture of the lever machine I'm currently seeing on every post. Is anyone else seeing it? What spam is this??

It's your spam, only you can see it. Take a screenshot and send it to me and I'll help ya out!

Brett H · February 2015

on 1425001437:

It's your spam, only you can see it. Take a screenshot and send it to me and I'll help ya out!

Even better, I'll post it in a help thread! Looks like an awful machine so I don't want it stinking up the place. All boxy and dull... Unlike those Strega LRM.... Yes the Strega is the Lever machine of the moment ... Buy one!!! LRM?? Are you here??

Moon · March 2015

Well .. after trying out some Kenya .. Indian Tiger Mountain, and currently Panama - all single origins, I've bean having it pretty good as far as good coffee goes. Cheers to mycuppa once again for the lovely beans at a super price .. along with good delivery price and friendly speedy service. * If that sounds like a plug for our Sponsor .. it is :angel: .. only well deserved :thumb: I've reverted back to a glass mug and using the double basket. Pour varies a bit .. and have usually bean around 40 secs for 40ml using 2 double fellini moves with the lever. Had a really nice one yesterday that was 30 secs for 30ml.. which was close to a 9.2/10 I reckon I've generally bean getting 9.15/10 from these beans, probably due to the 40ml shot. Last time I was running out of the single origins, I topped up the basket with some older 'Love Bites' blend from Ground Control. Yum ... that was definitely in the 9.2+/10 range. It added some more layers of flavour .. and I like the concentration of flavour that the 30ml shot gives, rather than the 40ml. *Next batch of beans will either be from Ground Control up on the Gold Coast or local mob - Georges Coffee in Brunswick. Back to the blends :coffee2:

littleroundman · March 2015

on 1425695758:

Fear not Moon, if you are talking about the PV Lusso any commercial espresso machine repairer worth his/her salt will be able to work on it and you should be able to buy parts from the previous importer as long as he is still in business. So, "warrantable" it may not be, but there shouldnt be any problems getting someone to work on it and fix if necessary (and it shouldnt need fixin any tome soon given they are so simple a design). Hope that helps.

Of course you're entirely correct in that the PV design is simplicity itself and any half competent repairer could handle it with ease. But, in this increasingly litigious society any prudent repairer will be wary of working on a machine which "should" be under warranty, particularly in the absence of even a simple wiring diagram As far as parts go, there aren't and never were any PV parts available in Australia from the importer At the time, Orphan Espresso was the "go to" source for parts, however, since OE decided to discontinue stocking the PV or the parts, the only practical source is now 1st-line coffee, in the USA.

FreshCoffee2 · March 2015

Just to clarify. Except in cases (not common) where an international warranty covers some piece of equipment: a) Anyone that privately imports something into this country has no warranty, unless he/she wishes to make a claim against the business from whom he/she purchased the item, overseas. If the vendor is reputable he/she may provide a replacement for any part that failed during whatever period the item is covered for in the country the sale was made. The warranty cant help but be of “limited” nature...ie, if anything, it will be restricted to providing a replacement part....and will not cover the cost to diagnose and fit the part. b) For a commercial importer, under Oz law the importer is deemed to be the manufacturer's representative, so the warranty in this country is the commercial importer's responsibility. IT ONLY COVERS ITEMS IMPORTED BY THE IMPORTER. Ie, any private importer that bypasses an Australian commercial importer and grey imports something OR, anyone that imports something where there is no Australian importer....sorry take it up with your vendor o/s. As there is no warranty in this country for items that have either bypassed an Oz importer or there isn't one, a repair workshop has no legal problem in charging to repair a machine that someone brings in. My own workshop is happy to work on anything even if it was purchased elsewhere...and even if it has an Australian commercial warranty from someone else. If the client wishes to have us repair his machine and is willing to pay, there is no problem. If the problem is warrantable, it is his choice to take it up through the proper channels but either way, the workshop gets paid because the warranty apparently being offered by someone else, has nothing to do with a private workshop. There is no legal problem. Jack brought in a number of machines and sold them at retail. He is responsible only for machines he imported and sold on (including one to me). Commercial importers have a legal requirement to hold spare parts to service the machines THEY import, for a period of I think...8 years. If people have to buy parts from O/S it could mean the parts stock here have been exhausted or the machines are older than 8 years. Otherwise just like everyone else, the obligation/requirement is there to carry enough spares at least for his own imports....I am not speaking for Jack, I am just telling you the way it is supposed to go. I have no idea if the Ponte Vecchio company is still around but if it is and I couldnt get a spare part locally, I would be asking them directly the closest place where I could buy the spare. It could be an american company but it could just as easily be an Italian company or the PV company itself. I don't know any reputable professional espresso machine service agent that needs a wiring diagram to be able to repair a machine, although I cant tell you how many times people that are not espresso machine repairers have sought to obtain a “wiring diagram” including sparkies. Sparkies are not professional espresso machine repairers, just as professional espresso machine repairers are not sparkies ! Sparkies usually don't understand espresso machines, so they ask for a wiring diagram. It is not their field, and in 99.9% of cases, a wiring diagram is not required for a pro to repair a machine. Have tried to cover off your points comprehensively, hope that helps.

Moon · March 2015

^^ Thanks for the info Fresh Coffee :thumb: Here's an excerpt from the shop I purchased my PV Lusso from in Italy My machine was purchased in Oct 2013 .. so out of warranty now anyway. Fortunately, I haven't had any problems to require it :thumb: I only decided to import it myself because the usual importer - Jack from Sorrentina was busy at the time moving house and had to defer importing more machines for a number of months. I decided I didn't want to wait that long, otherwise I would've been more than happy to get one from Jack - whom I had conversed with several times about getting a PV Lusso.

12 month warranty [Asia region] Manufacturer warranty usually does not include electrical parts, gasket and any other parts subject to normal weariness. More over the Manufacturer's warranty coverage will not be acknowledged in case of improper use or maintenance of the machine, not following the instructions, using the machine with no water in the boiler, and for lime deposit (in case of coffee machines). In case of assistance under warranty it is necessary to ask EspressoCoffeeShop for a Return Authorization Policy , RA The customer is required to pay shipping and handling charges to send the defective product to EspressoCoffeeShop. EspressoCoffeeShop will fix the product in warranty and will ship it back to the final customer free of charge. Products shipped without the RA given by EspressoCoffeeShop will be not accepted.

FreshCoffee2 · March 2015

Hi Moon, my reply above was long enough and I deliberately didnt mention that even when an O/S vendor will honour a new machine guarantee ("warranty"), the cost of consignment will be at the responsibility of the client atleast 1 way and mostly both ways. Lets say a $30.00 part fails, you would need to spend say at a guess....$350.00 (???) including, or plus insurance cover to send it back to them and much more if you had to pay the return freight as well. You also risk a) damage in transit / repairable / your cost or insurance b) damage to destruction / your cost or insurance c) Loss / your cost or insurance Not to mention mucho inconvenience/angst etc etc etc. Consignment of single items is very very risky. Conversely You get it fixed locally and pay all, and probably pay $130.00 max to inspect, diagnose, supply spare part and rectify...and there is no damage or loss. Their Asia Warranty is a very safe bet for them ! Regardless this is pretty academic as it is a very unlikely scenario (warranty claim - PV Lusso). Not so, for other much more internally complicated machines.

Moon · March 2015

Cheers Fresh i wasn't happy with the shipping cost from Italy as I thought the item should've weighed in to cost Euro $70 only it ended up Euro $120 (AU $170) I watched the tracking from the factory in Italy where it first had to go to the shop I bought it from for the paperwork. The item was dropped off at depots and reloaded onto trucks about 5 times across Switzerland on its way to Belgium iirc .. which is at the bottom of England before boarding a ship on its way probably along the English channel destined for Australia. It arrived in Sydney iirc .. and was then transported down to Melbourne and then couriered to Werribee on the south-eastern fringe. That's a heck of a lot of handling and travel .. so after that .. I thought the shipping fee wasn't too bad after all. The item was attached to a small wooden pallet and packed extremely well for the trip. One top corner of the cardboard box was squashed in .. but the machine was well protected and undamaged. Just imagine sending the machine off for a return warranty trip via that route .. blimey.

FreshCoffee2 · March 2015

on 1425862862:

...i wasn't happy with the shipping cost from Italy as I thought the item should've weighed in to cost Euro $70 only it ended up Euro $120 (AU $170)......Just imagine sending the machine off for a return warranty trip via that route .. blimey.

The freight is worked out on a formula of weight VS dimensions of the total package, and they charge whichever is the GREATER and...if its below their minimum value, they charge you their "minimum". Dont worry...they get you every time, although I agree the rate seems to have been quite reasonable. I guess insurance would have been on top of that. And....no I would never send a machine back o/s for any kind of service even if it is "warrantable" because it will cost more than to repair locally and / or is not worth the risk of damage.

Moon · April 2015

Well .. that was a long coffee break :coffee2: Ponte Vecchio still working a treat with no problems :thumb: Had some beans from Sponsor 'mycuppa' which were very nice and halfway through my next batch of 'Sensory Lab' beans purchased from a new local Cafe called 'Black Seed' who .. luckily for me .. have chosen to supply top quality beans which comes in handy when I run out. I have changed my tamping .. and now use a heavier tamp that I would call a 'medium' This seems to be working better than the polish only method previously used. I believe this is because I am able to squeeze more grinds into the 14g double basket .. giving the shot more coffee flavour. Still using the double fellini .. although I cut short the first lever rise to about 2/3 of the rise and then pull the lever down for the 2nd extraction. By doing this .. it reduces the volume of the first shot to about 10ml + 20ml for the 2nd .. resulting in a 30ml shot in the cup. I haven't bean happy with the flavour coming from a 40ml shot volume .. as it seems to extract flavour from spent grinds. It is most likely a 40ml shot that you'll get in a Cafe when ordering a mug of latte or cappuccino.. more if they are trying to skimp on milk. I use a mug sized glass cup, but due to the smaller 30ml shot .. I only steam up enough milk to fill it 3/4 full .. with the rest froth. This seems to get the right concentration of flavour for my taste .. as adding a little too much milk can make the difference between a rating of 9.1/10 and a 9.3/10. No prizes for guessing the rating I'm after. :coffee2: The last cup I made .. rated a 9.3/10 Went to the MICE Coffee expo in Melbourne a few weeks ago .. which was interesting with free cups of coffee on offer from the many vendors. Some pretty classy looking coffee equipment to drool at. The Slayers caught my eye with their modern Industrial design. How would I rate the show? ---> 7.5/10 Am I glad I went? Yes .. being the first time .. definitely worth going along for a squiz. Will I be going again next year? Maybe - 30% chance Here's the deal -breaker - Only had about 4 coffees .. only none put my little Ponte Vecchio Lusso lever machine & Compak grinder to shame .. and it cost a whole lot less than the gear they used. Having said that - I can't get anywhere near the 'body' that the Baristas were able to produce with their expensive equipment .. only for flavour .. I give the PV Lusso the :thumb:

Brett H · April 2015

Flavours where it's at Moony!

Moon · April 2015

Yeah .. that's what I reckon too Brett. I can't seem to get that thick heavy body and colour from my PV Lusso .. compared to many coffees in Cafes.. and always thought that seeing a deeper brown colour when being served up in a glass cup was an indication of a good quality coffee. Eventually I figured out that this isn't correct .. after having coffees that appeared pale in colour and assuming it was therefore weak .. ended up being quite flavoursome .. only more subtle .. rather than the in your face type darkies. I do enjoy those too when served up. It's the cup of hot milk with a hint of coffee that I find unsatisfying ---> Hey Bro .. I think you forgot to put the coffee in :lamp: :pan

FreshCoffee2 · April 2015

on 1428315198:

Well .. that was a long coffee break :coffee2: Ponte Vecchio still working a treat with no problems :thumb: ..................... Went to the MICE Coffee expo in Melbourne a few weeks ago .. which was interesting with free cups of coffee on offer from the many vendors. Some pretty classy looking coffee equipment to drool at. The Slayers caught my eye with their modern Industrial design. .................................. Here's the deal -breaker - Only had about 4 coffees .. only none put my little Ponte Vecchio Lusso lever machine & Compak grinder to shame .. and it cost a whole lot less than the gear they used. Having said that - I can't get anywhere near the 'body' that the Baristas were able to produce with their expensive equipment .. only for flavour .. I give the PV Lusso the :thumb:

Enjoyable post. Regarding "body": a) dependent on the SIZE of the filter "basket" being used in the machine, and b) dependent on the beans (especially where some use SO's so they cant adjust the balance by adding body through blending...) Lusso uses significantly smaller filters than standard commercial/cafe sized filters, and if they are using standard doubles and using all that to make one coffee for you then you are comparing a coffee made with a 14 gram filter, to one made with a filter holding somewhere between 19 to 21 grams OR.....if they are using the extra large sized filters then you could be comparing your 14 grams to a coffee made with say 26 grams or so. So even if the beans were the same as the ones you like to use at home, there can be a vastly significant difference on the palate dependent on the filters used by any particular exhibitors at the show in terms of balance and body in the cup (not to mention volume in the cup). For mine, I don't see any need whatsoever to use anything other than standard size equipment throughout and make coffees in appropriately sized cups with single portions (ie split the coffee from a standard double filter) but hey.....what do I know :stir Hope that helps.

Kevohere · April 2015

on 1428371686:

but hey.....what do I know :stir

Yes, an enjoyable post. And...... a great "body" explanation :thumb: "14 Coffee Awards 2014, 4 so far for 2015 Syd Royal" :thumb: :thumb: Do you know, a lot of us don't know what we know? Just keep sharing what you know FC... and all (on this forum) will be the better for it! :lamp:

Moon · April 2015

Cheers Guys .. and all those coffee awards speaks volumes to me FC :thumb: I was wondering whether it was due to the smaller basket size. I find a 14g double basket is a bit too strong for a std 150ml cup (allowing 1cm for microfoam) I Use a 250ml mug but only fill it to 170-180ml + microfoam .. so using the 14g double basket .. it needs the extra 20-30ml of steamed milk to get the right balance for my taste. Considering the above findings .. if I am to use a mug (cause std size goes too quick) ... ideally I reckon I need an 18g basket.. or even a 21g if I feel like a coffee with a bit of extra punch. I'm finding a 30ml shot volume is ideal regardless of the cup size. 20ml misses out on layers of flavour .. and 40ml gets into over extraction .. squeezing that little bit too much from the dregs. I've no idea whether larger sized baskets are available for the PV Lusso - which uses a small 45mm basket

C-man · April 2015

when I want more body I use a triple baskit and control shot time to suit but I think the little PV is limited for that with small portafilter size maybe someone could build or modify one for you? I think that would be a good mod for you.....a nakid with a deeper baskit

Moon · April 2015

Hi C-man I'll keep an eye out for basket makers. Going say 18g would make it pretty deep. I could always do a double and then add a single for the full mug cup. Thats where the double lever machine would've been handy .. over my single. Originally intended getting the twin lever. Still can be done though. Having said that ... I'm pretty happy with the balance I'm getting at the moment .. using less milk .. 35mm of froth instead of 10mm for a mugalatte.

C-man · April 2015

what size is the portafilter? like 51mm?

Moon · April 2015

45mm

Moon · April 2015

Have had a couple of Mug sized lattes at a local Cafe .. 'The Black Seed' .. where they use a 21g portafilter for the double-shot. Yeah .. the reason I don't get the body or colour, as previously pointed out by another forum member .. is due to the PV Lusso's smaller 14g double-basket. The extra 7g makes a big difference.. other than the fact they are using a Pro Synesso coffee machine and Mazzer grinder. Has to make some difference you'd hope after spending all the $ on them... well, other than looking impressive sitting in their Cafe looking all cool 8)

FreshCoffee2 · April 2015

on 1429598980:

Have had a couple of Mug sized lattes at a local Cafe .. 'The Black Seed' .. where they use a 21g portafilter for the double-shot. Yeah .. the reason I don't get the body or colour, as previously pointed out by another forum member .. is due to the PV Lusso's smaller 14g double-basket. The extra 7g makes a big difference.. other than the fact they are using a Pro Synesso coffee machine and Mazzer grinder. Has to make some difference you'd hope after spending all the $ on them... well, other than looking impressive sitting in their Cafe looking all cool 8)

Yeah mate dont be concerned, its only about "image and cool". the difference you picked is only from the size of the filters being used. Give you a simple example of the BS we have to put up with in the image and cool stakes: Cafe cleints demand you (the roaster supplier) give them a mazzer grinder. Why? Cause its been built up t be the darling quality image icon in the coffee trust network. They think its a "better' brand than some other quality brand. Here's the thing...you may be importing another quality brand say eg macap. Just as good as a mazzer (dependent on model specified for individual ciscumstance), and costs the you LESS than having to buy the mazzer off some other importer. But the client demands the mazzer. You roll and get them one, and that type of carry on costs you more and increases te cost of supply to the client. Multiply that scenario ten fold and hundred fold over a portfolio of cafe clients that you supply. A needless impost. What happens then? You add a margin to the price of your coffee (per kilo) to compensate you for the extra cost. This is CERTAINLY the case when you are forced to put in coffee machines such as the brand you mentioned, that cost more than 100% more than good name regular machines to purchase so you can lend it to the client. Client cops an increased price on his coffee over the term of his contract. Who wins....the importers and agents of and the manufacturers of the equipment. Does the cafe actually make better coffee? Not really...only if they think so..... This is the current state of BS in the market, and the trust network is causing an upheavalin cafe coffee industry and putting millions of dollars in the hands of certain manufacturers and their agents, who are laughing all the way to the bank and increasing their business on the back of free advertising and promotions provided by aparently intelligent and well educated people who unfortunately....cant seem to see past the ends of their noses and see the unelievable CON that is being perpetrated and that they are helping with. Why...because the trust network is building insecurity in people to the point where they dont believe in their own capacity to make a good cuppa, unless they are backed up by the favoured brand equipment. And an extra, needless, layer of stupid costs has been imposed in all coffee supply and consumption industry. Rant over.

Moon · April 2015

I enjoy a good rant .. only just finished one off myself over in the 'Why are Grinders so Important' thread as you posted yours :angel: I was over at the 'Back Seed Cafe' yesterday .. and Waleed had put the price of his already expensive 'Sensory Lab' roasted beans up from $48 kilo to $58 kilo. Why? Because the boys from Sensory Lab had paid him a visit to have a meeting - and told him his beans were being sold too cheaply. Apparently they wanted their beans to be sold at a consistent price around Melbourne .. quoting that David Jones in the City were selling them for around $60 kilo (?) They even encouraged Waleed to put an even higher price than what David Jones were selling them for. Waleed had them discounted for $48 I said to Waleed .. that's strange .. cause being a local punter myself, what did I do? I looked at Sensory Lab's online website to see if I was being 'ripped' .. and whether they could be purchased and delivered at a cheaper price online. Yep .. same kilo of beans for $50 My take on this .. and it is only my opinion/guess .. is that Sensory Lab were happy for the local Cafe in Werribee to display and promote their brand .. but wanting the price so high .. little would likely be sold .. as Werribee is not an upmarket suburb with lots of disposable $ compared to customers of an upmarket department store like David Jones in the City where they know they are paying a premium for goods. Being $50 on their site .. plus, I'm guessing $10 for postage, or thereabouts .. these bods from Sensory Lab, by my calculation, weren't keen on the local Cafe being able to sell their beans cheaper than they could online. By putting the price up above $60 .. which they were trying their hardest to convince Waleed to do .. I figure they want Black Seed Cafe to promote their brand by serving up their coffee beans to customers .. and if they were impressed .. not pay the higher price by purchasing some from Waleed .. but go online and get them cheaper from them. >:D If this is the strategy .. you gotta love that.. yeah? :pan<-- Sensory Lab

FreshCoffee2 · April 2015

Yes these are the antics and market manipulations that go hand in hand with what I described earlier. Your observations are good....very very good. Its all about branding, profit, and whose pocket it goes in to. There are others pulling similar stunts but I wont go into them because it aint worth the angst (or the time). But I will say....there seems to be no shortage of (very well educated apparently right thinking) fools who allow themselves to be manipulated by these sorts of stunts. The other way to look at it is...if you cant beat em join em. Arguing with people and trying to show them a way that will cost them significantly less in their back pockets for no less real quality in a cup has been proven not to work. So just say yes and go along with it and pass on whatever costings are added to everything...way to go ! Id say the best thing for mr black seed to do would be to buy a good name but correctly priced product for his cafe that he is happy with, and tell the other supplier to take a hike. He then tells his clients he has sourced an exclusive super high quality coffee for himself in his area. It will make little difference in the clients lartays, he will save himself a squillion in wholesale coffee cost, and he wont be putting money back into the previous suppliers pocket by funneling retail coffee sales away from himself to them. He also shouldn't identify his business with the brand of his supplier. It is the exclusive black seed blend....and helps build his own brand name. And if he is already doing a good job on the brew (proper bar rooster techniques), there is no cause for concern in terms of him losing any clients with a change in his coffee supply. Its only my opinion, but I've seen a hell of a lot of cafe owners that have a MAJOR INSECURITY problem in their own abilities and skill to run their cafes and produce a good cuppa, who feel pressure to be identified with certain brand names and get screwed by these brand names along the way (again...not my place to go there with real life descriptions for what clients will sign up for so they can be identified with someone else's brand...). It almost unbelievable, yet it happens on daily basis.

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