Top cafes: Sydney & Melbourne

admin · July 2003

Hi guys - around this time of year, we draw up a shortlist of the best places to get coffee in Sydney & Melbourne (also see Maico's post in the 'Melbourne espresso' thread).

Please can you list your top 3 cafes for each city. They should be the cafes where you would go for consistently great coffee, not food, ambience or anything else...

And please remember we're relying on you for your honest opinions - please be completely fair and impartial.

ristretto · August 2003

Admin, Top Cafes based on coffee alone: My decisions are based purely on the skill of the Barista's behind the machine, not the coffee, machine, grinder etc.

admin · December 2003

TRANSFERRED Post from dcbc on 'who is the best - Sydney' ok Im over it yeah sure there are alot of places that make good coffee but cutting to the chase Campos is consistently great. baristas that are not afraid of flavor. Cheers guys

admin · December 2003

COPIED POST from Over Extracted: The baristas at Campos are great the coffee itself is ok but not allways the same. OE

Unknown · December 2003

I only need (and can) nominate one for Sydney. Unfortunately they are still working on a proper name, but at this stage they are referred to as BN in Alexander Street Crows Nest. I have been there at peak and off peak times and the barista, a young bloke named Simon, consistently goes through the same methodical process. This results in absolutely fantastic coffee every time. Everything from the length of the shot, to presentation (even for those who get their takeaway cups), etc is done, not only for me, but for other regular and non-regular customers. My only qualm is the fact that he doesn't open till 8am and only on weekdays at this stage. As he has written on the wall "Good coffee takes time" Cheers Patrick

dcbc · December 2003

Good coffee takes time. I love it!!!! as it should, by the way, Campos there is a new guy making shots, it has changed a bit but not much.

Unknown · December 2003

What an odd thing to say. Campos Coffee always has a number of baristas on making shots. One of them may be new, yes, but the coffee has not changed. There are six amazing baristas in Campos, all of whom have trained for weeks to get their positions. At the end of their training, they have a make-or-break test where they must produce all our coffees in duplicate to our norm. Four of these six have been in Campos for over a year, and are very content professionals in for the long haul. To debase our work by referring to a "new guy making shots, it has changed a bit, but not much" is petty, insulting, and somewhat insidious. We have spent the last year and a half committed to making the finest quality espresso while learning and improving at every opportunity. We look to this website to find others dedicated to the cause - especially other cafes we can support and respect. There are so few who are genuinely into quality without compromise. Petty little remarks like this do not help the industry move forward towards quality at all. Sincerely, Will Young

dcbc · December 2003

I apologise will, I certainly didn't mean for it to come across that way. I am a huge fan of what you do, I will admit that I have had one coffee that has not tasted like the previous but alas it certainly still tasted amazing. I am dissapointed that it came across that way.

Unknown · December 2003

Will, I am surprised that you, as an industry participant (yes?) seek to show such contempt and arrogance to your patrons. I do not wish to speak for 'dcbc' as I do not know them, but if you have read their other posts, you will note that they generally praise Campos. You suggest that your coffee is unchanging, and if the processes abd staff are taught as such, I applaud you. However, as we know, coffee is a dynamic product that goes through incredible processes to result in our beloved bevarage. To suggest that you have unwavering control over EVERY step of the process, and therefore that each shot is exactly the same as the previous shows arrogance of the highest order. You state that you are "learning and improving at every opportunity". This by definition, should result in changes to the end product. At the end of the day, your customer is as important a judge of your staff and product as you are. To denigrate and patronise them is appalling. I have not tried an espresso at Campos as yet, however, if this is the general level of contempt you show for your customers, I doubt I will. It should also be borne in mind that mediums of communication such as this can very easily lead to misinterpretations. Patrick

Unknown · December 2003

Hey there brothers & sisters,just a quick note on three best in Sydney,of course I will say at no.1 would be Campos at Newtown (as a Barista there would you expect anything else) no.2 probably spring on the weekend,no.3 ground 0 when Julian is on,But remember of course that I tend to only drink my own product and I dont get out too much. Just on a side note to Patrick,we do like to feel we have control over every part of the process from choosing the highest grade green bean,roasting it to perfection,grinding fresh EVERY time and ensuring every extraction is nothing less than sensational,If it isn't perfect we throw it away,it is truly as simple as that. There is nothing within the process of producing a fine espresso that cannot be controlled.If someone says to you that there is nothing that can be done to the process to make it better,it is just an excuse for mediocrity,always strive for excellence and love the life you live!!! Peace.

Unknown · December 2003

Matt, I appreciate your comments and the dedication to excellence you suggest. I look forward to trialing your coffee (whenever I can get off my backside and get across the Bridge). My comments were basically threefold: 1. If you are improving your process, then, like I said, by definition this implies change. If you trial a new process, new form of roasting, new portafilter, or anything, I seriously doubt you can know with 100% certainty what the end product will be. Granted, you may trial this amongst staff until you 'get it right'. Furthermore, I question whether you can control aspects of humidity, different odours in the air (which may not be perceptible to one's nose) which may affect different areas of the process. All I am saying is that, and only said as a consumer, not a barista, I would expect that there are elements outside of your control that may impact on the final product no matter how rigidly the PROCESS is maintained. 2. The only person who judges the final product is the consumer. Again, I doubt that you can know whether one shot will taste exactly like another unless you taste it yourself. Even if they look the same. 3. The attitude....if I told John Duvall that his Grange tasted slightly off, different or whatever, what right would he have to say that my opinion or comment was petty. Similarly, if I told a barista the shot tasted different to this morning's or yesterday's or last week's, I would expect he/she would take that on board and not demean my opinion as worthless. I was simply suggesting that he lose the arrogant, patronising and conceited attitude. Happy brewing Patrick

Unknown · December 2003

Best coffee in Sydney?? Campos Coffee in Newtown, The Grind in Cronulla and 2KF in Mona Vale. To all the fine baristas out there...I take my hat off to you!

FreshCoffee2 · December 2003

Kids, a little bit of sanity please... Re: "......the coffee has not changed....." As has been said in this forum many times before, coffee is an ever changing "living" "breathing" organic substance. If it does not change, it is most probably dead stale. I can understand the reasons why cafe owners, roasting company owners and their representatives will say that "nothing (about the coffee) has changed" and usually it's because some uninformed individual has mentioned the "Consistency" word, and is trying to tell you there is something wrong. Everyone has a nervous breakdown whenever the "C" word rears its ugly head. But "lack of consistency" does not mean something is wrong, it means something is different. It would be better for all however, if the argument was turned on its head and it was accepted generally that INconsistency is OK, as it shows the coffee is still fresh. This ofcourse, is what makes the capable espresso machine operator's job so interesting, such a challenge, that is to produce an excellent brew from such an interesting and ever changing raw material. Tell it like it is. Good quality coffee is not consistent, your brewing method therefore needs to change with it. You can all go back to your favourite cafe's now. FC.

dcbc · December 2003

cheers fresh couldn't agree more, an arrogant attitude Will Young? probably not, but like fresh says inconsistencies are good. Lets not forget coffee is seasonal... cafe adan- Mosman good? You bet.

Unknown · December 2003

Oh goodness. This is all killing me. I was hoping we could all get back to the topic at hand, which perhaps I need to remind you is to list the places you go for consistently great coffee in Sydney and Melbourne. Patrick and Fresh Coffee: you guys sound like backyard baristas and far from expert with all this rambling on about consistency and the ever-changing organic dynamic universe of coffee. To quote Matt, "there is nothing within the process of producing fine espesso that cannot be controlled"...this is completely true. He's not denying that there aren't ever-changing factors that influence the end result. What he is saying is that a good barista can adjust all the 'controllable' elements (such as the grind) involved in pouring great coffee so that the end result does not greatly vary from cup to cup and from day to day. THAT is how consistency of the final product is achieved. To say that inconsistency is o.k (becasue it shows that the coffee is still fresh??? HUH? Where are you getting these arguments from?!)is a total cop-out and the kind of excuse that a bad barista (or roaster) makes. Patrick, as for your reaction to Will's response to Dcbc regarding the 'new guy...' I believe you have greatly over-reacted. I don't think anyone reading this (including Dcbc him/herself) would consider Will's attitude to be full of contempt, arrogance and conceitment. It IS petty to single out a new employee as a reason for a coffee tasting different to the previous coffee. And Dcbc has aploogised for coming across that way. At no point did Will deam Dcbc's opinion as worthless either...it's all in YOUR head! Now, please...back to the topic! Cheers!

admin · December 2003

Hi guys - would like some other candidates for great coffee in Sydney; likewise Melbourne...Desgraves usually comes up, as does Wall Two 80 and several people have mentioned a new one called Pound, off Chapel St - any comments on these; any other serious contenders? Admin

Unknown · December 2003

I must say that based on many comments here, I do have to make the pilgrimage to Newtown for a coffee experience at the famous Campos - I have heard from others outside of this forum that it is fantastic. Not to extend an argument which seems to have lost all resemblence of sanity, but, Louise, firstly, I am not a barista, I am that spanner in the whole works - the consumer. Furthermore, if you read my comments, I suggested that a consistent PROCESS is fantastic, across time and employees. Like any service industry in particular, a strong process which is replicable and enforced (perhaps a bit strong). So we agree then that the end result, despite a consistent process, may not be EXACTLY the same, cup to cup. And by the way, Louise, petty is defined as of little importance, sounds similar to 'worthless' don't you think. What an industry! Thank god the product is fantastic. Patrick

FreshCoffee2 · December 2003

Re all the above: I

dcbc · December 2003

Louise,barista? Maybe, a new employee Does throw a spanner in the works it is an uncontrollable fact. You should know that. Personally I did feel like Will's comments were a bit of an over reaction,listening Will? but as someone who is passionate about coffee I can understand it if I was in his position I probably would have thought the same but perhaps would have approached it in another manner.

Unknown · December 2003

I think one thing that these forums show, like any text based communication medium, is that it is very easy to take comments out of context, as there is little way to actually reflect emotion or anything like that. Anyway, back to the topic at hand.... I think Forsyths in Naremburn (Syd) has the potential to be one of the top cafes in Sydney, or at least the north shore. However, unfortunately I have encountered too much inconsistency (there's that word) with non-milk coffees (espressos, long blacks, etc) including excessive temperature. Any other experiences? Patrick

admin · December 2003

Would be interested in any comments on the 'old school' of Sydney cafes [eg Bar Coluzzi, Latteria, Bar Italia] vs the new 'up-and-coming' ones eg Campos, Toby's Estate, Grind, etc...have they been superseded, or are they still holding their own? Also, is Spring (Pott's Point) still up to the mark? If you guys don't have a comment on this, then who does? -A

ristretto · December 2003

Have been missing in action for a while but have enjoyed reading this post. Admin:

dcbc · December 2003

I asked for a double ristretto on the weekend and got something short and flavourless thanks Spring, to be honest Spring has lost its appeal for me as for coluzzi Lateria etc, the coffee is terrible as is the food, Whats that catch phrase? "Location Location" Like ristretto puts it there are some great places out there that follow through please some more.

Gonzo · December 2003

If we are simply talking a good quality wet coffee, not decor, atmosphere or food, then I will have to say I have found the coffee at "2 Park Cafe" very well made. I enjoyed the post by Ristretto, many "italian" places really are well below standard these days and very, very tired. It is a thing of wonder that patrons continue to frequent places that serve sloppy food, and we do find that most of these italian, and sometimes greek cafe families will only patronise very well established large coffee companies, some of which have the worst blends. Please people do not be offended, I am simply stating a personal observation. Feel free state your own. G.

Unknown · December 2003

I tend to agree with recent posts suggesting the old school are now only relying on name and reputation, and not maintaining quality. I have been enticed into some cafe's because it 'appears' to be a great coffee shop (crusty Italian barista, etc) and found the coffee was crap. Ordered a double ristretto and found the liquid must have been about 100+ degrees in the cup. One quick question for those in the know: does the term 'cafe' refer to a shop which, first sells (and prides itself on) coffee and also offers some food, or is it now meaningless in terms of any old place, say a sandwich shop, can call themselves a cafe if they have the Brand wind breaks and umbrellas outside? Also, can a cafe be considered good if the coffee is brilliant, yet the owner/manager/barista has a bad attitude? (not implying any reference to previous posts to this topic, of course :P). Cheers Patrick

Gonzo · December 2003

your questions are probably the stuff of another topic but I've seen stated in this forum before that many modern day "cafes" in general are nothing more than "eateries" of whatever kind, that just happen to have a coffee machine in the corner, that no one knows how to use properly, and that some of the staff begrudge using, resulting in mediocre product. So what do we call them...takeaways, sandwich bars, lunch stops??? Regarding bad atttude, in my area there is a cafe that is owned by someone such as you describe. There is a lesson in here somewhere I know...he uses the lowest possible quality garbage imported roasted from the old country. Before anyone makes a comment about my comment re "garbage" let me say simply, that this is not a an observation I have made while looking down my nose about "quality". The stuff is simply the lowest and cheapest form of roasted coffee you can buy. He abuses his customers and gives them what he wants, not what they want.... The thing he does well, is to brew the wet coffee properly i.e., he brews low quality coffee well. ...and whilst not this little bunny, many people go there. Go figure. I will say however, some years ago this cafe was seen as avant garde in the region, now it's just another " cafe". G.

CharlieNo3 · December 2003

Also, can a cafe be considered good if the coffee is brilliant, yet the owner/manager/barista has a bad attitude?

It depends what you go to a cafe for. Is it for good coffee first? Or is it to catch up with friends, and by the way, probably have a coffee while you're there? That's what I'd say most people go to cafes for. Look at why the people are at the cafe, and you'll answer your own question

dcbc · December 2003

I sometimes have a bad attitude, and it is not because I don't enjoy my job rather it is born from people ordering Large decaf skim caramel lattes, This is not coffee. Then a double ristretto comes in and it restores my faith. For the ignorant I have little time and I know I'll get slammed for saying this but hey that the way I see it.

Gonzo · December 2003

A double ristretto is just as much a deviation from classic espresso as the other caramel flavoured milk coffee thing you described.... An espresso is, an espresso. Single portion. If extracted properly there is no need to double the strength, except for personal preference. A double is not the "norm", or "standard". G.

Espresso_Amore · December 2003

Lately i have seen alot of bagging going on in regards to Imported Italian Coffee's. I import coffee from Florence in Italy, and have absolute happy customers 99.5% of the time. It's not just about coffee either it's what you put into the coffee experience. My question for the Italian coffee knockers is this, If so many italian coffee's are shit or not up to scratch then why does every tom dick & harry coffee roaster/cafe/restaurant name their coffee anything sounding Italian. I mean if u have Ausssie coffee thats fine, its most probably perfect coffee, but call it such. Dont chastize the italian coffee companies if you name yours for eg (Caffe Italia or something along those lines) (Just an example name folks not intended to nock any company that has that exact name.. whatsoever...) Also in regards to good coffee, their are alot of them here in Brisbane, how come noone cares about this state. Thanks for listening( if anyone did that is lol)

admin · December 2003

Hi EA - I can't comment on the 'Italian question' you raise, but just so you know, we're only small (we're not suported by the coffee industry in any way) and that's why Crema magazine is only available in Sydney and Melbourne. FYI, as we grow, we're hoping to expand to other states, but it's really only a function of our size, for the moment. However, you're most welcome to raise coffee issues, or discuss the cafe scene in other states on this Forum. Cheers Admin

frame

Howdy, Stranger!

Howdy, Stranger!

Categories

In this Discussion

Top cafes: Sydney & Melbourne

Comments

foot

Policies

Social

frame

Howdy, Stranger!

Howdy, Stranger!

Quick Links

Categories

In this Discussion

Top cafes: Sydney &amp; Melbourne

Comments

foot

Policies

Social

Top cafes: Sydney & Melbourne