Astoria greenline

askthecoffeeguy

Ok I have the chance to get my hands on one of these at a price that is right - anyone know anything about these?

I've done my research and I like that they have programable independent boilers for each group and a separate programable heating element for each group head, AND an independent hot water supply which is heat on demand for long blacks etc - which means you're not dropping steam pressure

That's a heck of a lot of functionality but has anyone had a play on one?

Cheers,

ACg

Koffee_Kosmo

I found a Scottie Callaghan review - http://www.beanscenemag.com.au/articles/view/less-power-more-punch

askthecoffeeguy

Thanks KK I read it with interest I like the functionality, fingers crossed I get to take one for a test drive next week...

simont

I had one of these in a cafe for 6 months (before selling the cafe), they are a great machine.  Build quality is very good for an Italian machine, in my opinion better than WEGA and San Marino off the same production line. Temperature control is rock solid and gives you plenty of scope to experiment getting a blend to taste how you want it, and to mess around with SO coffees on a separate group. Hot water function does exactly what it is supposed to, I measured it consistently at 80 degrees. The only niggle I had was the ridged filter baskets meant the pucks never came out clean, but this is a simple fix.  The screw retaining the shower screen has a cone washer which removed preventing disturbance to the puck.  I also understand that thinner dispersion plates are available if you want to updose (16g is about the max you can get in the standard double with stock dispersion plate). I didn't play around too much with the energy saving functionality, but it is good to know it is there if you want to experiment.

Brett H

Welcome Simont!  Thanks for a great first post!  I use the Eco function on my domestic machine (not when making coffees) but find it hard to fathom how Eco-friendly would function well in peek times or in cafes that are high volume.  How did it go getting smashed Simont?

askthecoffeeguy

That's good to know as I use 21g baskets as standard and I'd need a no mess / no fuss approach to updosing - especially during the busy periods! Looks like great functionality on the machines - but eight buttons on the presets above each group is definitely overkill! Also it seems a shame that the end user does not appear to have been consulted in the design / layout / finish of the machine I for one would like to see digital shot clocks attached to each group keypad, and I'd rather have one oversized on / off brew switch for each group than eight little ones - or else three larger Kronos switches -as this is all that a modern barista should need And I for one would like to see on / off lever switches for the steam wand - as they work great and there's much less strain on the barista And customizable stainless exterior shells that can be made to order Still... I haven't actually  played on one yet so ill reserve my judgement until I have ...

simont

There are two shot clocks, one in each bottom corner of the main display.  The number of pre-sets is overkill, I only used two on each group plus hot water.  Steam paddles are nicer (the WEGA has these), knobs are a bit cumbersome. I guess it depends on your perspective.  The 2-group retails for around $9K which considering the features is hard to beat.  For half the price of a Synesso you get 95% as much machine (in my opinion). I traded in a fully customised Ruggero multi-boiler for the Astoria and the quality of the Astoria was more than adequate payoff for the lack of colour options etc. The 2-group was about 4500W, just under 20A, I never managed to run it out of steam even when occasionally using both steam wands simultaneously.

askthecoffeeguy

Yeah the functionality on them is pretty impressive although I'm almost tempted to go a dumbed down model which is more aesthetically pleasing to look at Looking forward to having a play on one during the week all the same - may be quite different in the flesh as opposed to on the page (I find this is usually the case)

simont

The Astoria Perla is a good machine also, for a HX.  If I had the choice again I would love to try a Rapallo lever...

askthecoffeeguy

yeah the perla semi auto looks the goods as does the rapallo in both the e61 and the lever versions - I guess theres a lot to look at and consider ...

shape_shifter

You guys suck...how nice is the Rapallo lever, pity it's not half the price  :-) I think I have to put that on my list.

FreshCoffee2

on 1363509354:

...I guess it depends on your perspective.  The 2-group retails for around $9K which considering the features is hard to beat.  For half the price of a Synesso you get 95% as much machine (in my opinion)....

Been waiting for someone "from the floor" other than an equipent trader to say something like that. We are all in the same posi...our own BFC multi boiler PID machines are unbelievable value for money compared to those "other" brands. But most clients dont want to hear about it....the vocal minority in cafe biz are hooked on and its all about "the brand" now, never mind you pay double the money to make the same coffee in a working cafe situation and are still dependent on the standard of the staff behind the machine.  Its nothing more than branding image. Pat you havent said if you have an opportunioty to get your hands on a NEW machine for a nice price, or a used machine. No reason why you wont find it a worthwhile investment just note however that over a period of time, with the extra controls required in mulit boiler PID control machines, when some kind of service is required down the track, you need to be dealing with a service provider that knows and understands this type of machine. Techs that have only ever worked on HX machines will find it difficult when they lob up and find a PID machine on the bench instead, will take more time in diagnosis and not know whether they're on the right track. Also note, unless you are prepared to experiment with it by USING the extra level of temperature control that it offers, you could be wasting your money ie, not much point buying a machine where your baristas can really do their job and find the best extraction temperature for any given coffee you buy, if they leave it on the same temp forever. In which case you may as well save your money and stay with a simpler machine where one temp does all (not that there is anything wrong with that either in a busy cafe environment where most coffees are milk drownings). Remember a lot of stuff in cafe / coffee / coffee equipment industry is nothing more than smoke and mirrors (BS) to get you to spend more money to pursue a certain image thought to be the current "Coffee politically correct" image. Cost / benefit required for your own particular situation. Hope that helps.

askthecoffeeguy

Thanks FC It would be a new machine that I'm after I've currently got a BFC Synchro single boiler HX machine which has been great - but after nearly four years of solid use its starting to look a little worse for wear and tear And as for the wizz bang machines with all the bells and whistles - there is a sense that in a highly competitive marketplace at least (at last count there were 70 cafes in Northcote where I'm based and seemingly growing daily) - the consumer demands a high end machine and to keep competent staff, you need to be able to offer them equipment comparable to their experience Also, I hate to say it, but certain segments of the media seem to rave about the big guns Robur E combination - and so called lesser contenders are lucky to get a look in I for one am not in a position to buy  $20,000 machine outright - and the financial costs in servicing a loan agreement to purchase something similar seem to me to be a ludicrous impost on a business Which puts me in the comfortable middle ground - of wanting a good looking and function machine that's a little out of the ordinary - which isn't going to break the bank To this extent I'm open to suggestion and am currently being guided by my coffee roaster - who can and probably has at some time stripped and rebuilt or serviced every type of coffee equipment that is available for the Australian cafe market Cheers ACg

FreshCoffee2

on 1363562750:

Thanks FC..........And as for the wizz bang machines with all the bells and whistles - there is a sense that in a highly competitive marketplace at least (at last count there were 70 cafes in Northcote where I'm based and seemingly growing daily) - the consumer demands a high end machine and to keep competent staff, you need to be able to offer them equipment comparable to their experience Also, I hate to say it, but certain segments of the media seem to rave about the big guns Robur E combination - and so called lesser contenders are lucky to get a look in.....ACg.....

Yup re your BFC machine, 4 years for a commercial machine is the end of its life in the working environment if the kilos are "reasonable".  Either it is refurbished to go back out into the field again, or its basically finished (and in any case has paid for itself many times over and its very dangerous to try to get blood out of something that is close to being stone dead).  In a sense, operators trying to get blood out of their old coffee machines is one good reason for the advent of the image marketing icon brands. If operators thought to turn their machines over every 2 years, give their staff something new and upgraded to use  and give a fresh outlook to their business image, their staff would see that their trusty 2 or 3 group HX is a nice machine to use and makes great coffee. IE, perhaps there are a lot of people out there making the wrong comparisons, ie comparing their 5 to 10 yo clapped out HX machines to brand new image marketing models, which is always a dangerous comparison to make.  WRT the first part of my selective quote here.....so you used to work in advertising before you took the plunge into cafes  ;D ?  What a corker of a paragraph.  I will disagree in one teensy point....you mention the consumer demands a high end machine. In the main I dont think the consumer has a clue. In my experience its the staff making the demands, and you need to be able to offer them equipment comparable to the experience they think they need to have to make good coffee (which of course means they are not nearly as competent as they think they are). Also.....what the devil does "high end" eqiupment mean, in the context of use in a working cafe environment?  (For my answer see final sentence of this post). And yes, the marketers are turing all coffee industry into a monopoly of only very few brand names. So its refreshing to hear about someone trying a new model from an established espresso machine manufacturer instead of wanting to buy nothing other than the latest politically correct brands. A colleague and I did a cafe crawl in Sydney last week after attending Cafe Biz. Not for the coffee, but to see what image businesses are trying to portray and what equipment they feel they need to have as part of "the package". The equipment is now part of the total fashion statement....that it actually can be used to make coffee seems to be rather secondary. Hope that helps.

askthecoffeeguy

High end means top of the range equipment with a price tag to match such as the Strada, Synesso, Mirage etc which many of the cafes in my immediate vicinity seem to carry I'm not saying that they necessarily make better coffee - the barista makes the coffee, not the machine - but they're certainly in demand! My BFC receives a minor service every six months and a major one every 12 months, and its still making terrific coffee - but I for one need a new coffee challenge - and new equipment could go a long way towards meeting this challenge And rather than pour my hard earned into meeting ongoing maintenance costs, I'd rather fork out for a new machine ! Still open to suggestion in terms of what's out there And keen to drive some new equipment and see how and if technology has changed that dramatically in the last few years ...

coffeehorse

Okay, I'll bite. I hated this machine. I thought scottie's review stated the obvious. Sure, you've got a lot of control over variables, but most coffee blends work best in the 92-94C @ group head blend as a starting point. The fact that he was trying to reverse ramp instead of do a normal 'hotter at the start' profile and working as low as 88C just makes me think that the review is a complete and utter dud. Sure, it's a solid machine, the way San Marino's are solid. But the reality is that for a great extraction, I'd much prefer a stripped down a re-built Linea. The reality is that in the same way some customers will walk off if there's coffee in the doser, others will walk off if there's a machine where the brand is perceived as 'crappy, no-name'. Turn of the century styling, cheap plastics and LED panels may look good to the barista, but when the back of the machine doesn't WOW the customer, you'll often lose foot traffic to the guy with the 5 group slayer or 4 group synesso propping up the bar. If you can compete on 'aesthetic' is just as much of a valid reason to choose a machine as 'quality' - just be sure you've identified that the machine will not just meet your aesthetic - the main reason so many companies fail in the UK at the moment seems to be business practices and aesthetics stuck in 1995. Honestly, it's just another CMA machine with gimmicks. Give it a few years and then see how reliable they are, imo - but per-group PID isn't exactly revolutionary, and the USB input tells you exactly who it's marketed to - mass-producing chains.

askthecoffeeguy

Have to say that the aesthetics of the plus 4 you line don't personally appeal to me and I'm probably more personally drawn to the lever machine (but the manufactures themselves have specified that the this machine is not suited to a high volume setting) or the volumetric Perla - but then I'd be concerned about less experienced staff members not being as capable at "free pouring" on the machine - which pretty much takes me back to square one!

conikal

on 1363572545:

, 4 years for a commercial machine is the end of its life in the working environment if the kilos are "reasonable".  Either it is refurbished to go back out into the field again, or its basically finished (and in any case has paid for itself many times over and its very dangerous to try to get blood out of something that is close to being stone dead)..... 

Wow ! .. that surprised me. I am stunned that a  designed for commercial use is considered "dead" after only 4 years.. assuming it is maintained  correctly. My background is industrial ( manufacturing etc) and there is no way we could tolerate or justify a prime peice of equipment with such a limited life span ( computer/electronics possible exception )   If the technology changed significantly, or the product /customer  requirements changed, i could understand, but i dont believe that is the case. However, i do believe that with the current "Cafe Culture"  more customers are aware of the equipment and expect to see a "State of the art"  m/c in use, in order to feel they are in vogue with times.   So, i might understand a m/c being "retired" after a few years for image marketing reasons,.... but from a functional / reliability aspect i am still surprised ! These two following statements seem contradictory,.. ...maybe those cafe owners are more aware of what their customers expect..in addition to good tasting coffee.

on 1363572545:

....you mention the consumer demands a high end machine. In the main I dont think the consumer has a clue. ...... The equipment is now part of the total fashion statement....that it actually can be used to make coffee seems to be rather secondary.

FreshCoffee2

Ask any techie and I think you will find that machines start to fail more frequently after about 18 months when they are in a high volume establishment. Say for example sake, 50 kg a week.  After that clients seem to be forever calling for service as one thing goes wrong after another. And I am not talking bottom end machines, I'm talking machines built using components of good name, in high turnover situations. Failing pressurestats, steam valves, electovalves, touch pads, anti vac valves...etc. And may I say this is because, thank heavens, the machine is being used to its full capacity to run business with.  An aged machine in pristine condition hasnt been used enough...not good business. The downtime is a legitimate business inconvenience (if inconvenient), and whoever is paying for the service would rather not. Also the service provider runs out  frequently, and if the service provider is also the bean supplier there is more likelihood of the client jacking up at some point and refusing to pay for the callouts. Its just as inconvenient for the servce provider because of the angst from the client. It becomes self limiting, and at what point does anyone call it quits. This is business reality, not the "oh isnt coffee wonderful" side of coffee. And so it becomes a business decision  as to when its then time to change over to a replacement machine. Also if you leave a machine too long it starts to look very tired, trim falls off, panels are scraped etc. They dont look good, and they dont necessarily work well either if proper maintenance isnt kept up. The busier the client is, the quicker all that happens.  Big psychological effect on everyone including clients, staff and the service provider in addition to money spent on service. This isnt the fault of whether a machine is or isnt what some people think is "high end", its a fact of life with any tired coffee machine, and there is no doubt that many cafe owners contribute to this by not effecting ongoing maintenance but rather, waiting for breakdowns to just happen. Machines at that end of their cycle need to go in for major refurbishment after which they can go out again and it can mean that machines have 2 or 3 separate stages to their effective working life. Also what people in these forums dont seem to realise, is that a coffee machine was nothing more than a means to an end, a work horse just like a taxi, and it is only of late that they have been turned into desireable iconic fashion statements. In addition, while a lot of discussion does the rounds of these forums, the fact remains that the greatest majority of coffee drinking is done in cafes that are never spoken of in these circles, not seen as iconic places to visit and experience the coffee, they are just run of the mill cafes turning out browned milk to the masses. No contradiction in the last quote. Its the cafe owners that decide what kind of image they feel they need to portray in their total fit out to win custom over competing businesses.  And if you take a look at the cafes that are seen to be "in", they are adopting the same new equipment fashion statement. If you did the rounds of the clients in a cafe and asked them what kind of equipment is on the bench, do you think they'd know and of they did, do you think they would be able to tell you if they think the coffee in this establishment might be better than elsewhere simply because of the equipment used? Is their coffee any better than anyone elses or are we all drinking labels, fashion, image and the spin on the packet? And if it is better, is it because of the brand name on the end panel of the equipment or is it because the operator has a better standard of education in coffee making than ever before?  Only you can decide. Hope that helps.

askthecoffeeguy

I think location and context are important here - as I mentioned earlier I'm in a suburb where there are 70 other cafes - and you need to have a point of diference to attract clients Also, if speciality coffee is your angle into the marketplace, as mine clearly is, then it pays to back that up with an espresso machine which has withstood the test of time, makes amazing coffee, and has longevity I managed to kill a G10 in a little over 12 months by running 800 to 1000 coffees through it per day - even with regular maintenance the machine just fell apart as it did not appear to stand up to such heavy usage - whether that's a reflection on build quality or not I do not know - but I do know that there are still plenty of 10 yr old Lineas out there that keep chugging along seemingly with very little problems Guess I'm looking around now - got some ideas - I'll keep you posted

FreshCoffee2

on 1363649039:

........... I managed to kill a G10 in a little over 12 months by running 800 to 1000 coffees through  there per day - even with regular maintenance the machine just fell apart as it did not appear to stand up to such heavy usage - whether that's a reflection on build quality or not I do not know - but I do know that there are still plenty of 10 yr old Lineas out there that keep chugging along seemingly with very little problems Guess I'm looking around now - got some ideas - I'll keep you posted

There really are differences in the standard of design and build (and therefore service life) between the various manufactureres. And they can all offer you a range of models from budget to top of the range.  Also wrt 10 y o machines chugging along with few problems, I would be interested to hear from their service providers to get the inside picture on what's really happening 

FreshCoffee2

on 1363611970:

... I hated this machine. I thought scottie's review stated the obvious. Sure, you've got a lot of control over variables, but most coffee blends work best in the 92-94C @ group head blend as a starting point. The fact that he was trying to reverse ramp instead of do a normal 'hotter at the start' profile and working as low as 88C just makes me think that the review is a complete and utter dud. If you can compete on 'aesthetic' is just as much of a valid reason to choose a machine as 'quality' - just be sure you've identified that the machine will not just meet your aesthetic - the main reason so many companies fail in the UK at the moment seems to be business practices and aesthetics stuck in 1995.

Yes John, I absolutely agree its the external appearance of the new kids on the block  that is becoming paramount and it doesnt do for established manufacturers to stay stuck in the last century. They do that at their own peril, and more Italian manufacturers hahve gone under in the last few months. Re some reveiws being duds......well yeah! But what's it got to do with anything? The majority of punters just want a nice creamy lartaye where the inherent body of the coffee "cut through" the milk. For that you only need a good name reliable HX in good nik, an espresso machine operator that is competent, and a roaster supplier that knows how to design an espresso blend properly. Its the lack of any or all of these three ingredients that blows it all out of the water, and the fashionistas get the thin end of their wedge in the door. The rest is smoke and mirrors, and the industry as a whole is currently sinking under the weight of it (smoke and mirrors aka BS).

askthecoffeeguy

on 1363649759:

There really are differences in the standard of design and build (and therefore service life) between the various manufactureres. And they can all offer you a range of models from budget to top of the range.  Also wrt 10 y o machines chugging along with few problems, I would be interested to hear from their service providers to get the inside picture on what's really happening 

ok that remark may have been a bit flippant as I know how often machines need to be serviced / overhauled to keep running - what I will say is that there are still plenty of ten year old Lineas in use and producing good coffee - not sure that the same can be said for other machines of the same ilk ...

FreshCoffee2

I am seldom flippant Pat 

askthecoffeeguy

on 1363650221:

Yes John, I agree its the external appearance of new kids on the block  that is becoming paramount and it doesnt do for manufacturers to stay stuck in the last century. Re some reveiws being duds......well yeah! But what's it got to do with anything? The majority of punters just want a nice creamy lartaye where the inherent body of the coffee "cut through" the milk. For that you only need a good name reliable HX in good nik, and a roaster supplier that knows how to design a espresso blend properly. The rest is smoke and mirrors, and the industry as a whole is currently sinking under the weight of it (smoke and mirrors aka BS).

Have to say that I disagree with you there If I bought an espresso machine with eight presets per group - I'm pretty sure that my gun baristas would walk, and,  in Melbourne at least, I would say that there is a considerable coffee clientele who are well informed about coffee machine specifications and capabilities, and the ability to engage these clients on this level promotes a point of difference for a business, and indicates hopefully that the person behind the machine knows what they're talking about, and, combined with a great coffee in the cup, time after time. demonstrates that the owner is passionate about the product they produce Yes, agreed, there are a lot more variables that come into play to produce an amazing coffee, including bean selection, roast profile, blending, staff training, palate knowledge and expertise, and the ability of the establishment to clearly identify their target clientele, and to get their message (whatever that may be) across clearly and succinctly And  I still maintain that certain sections of the media, and the dining public, will not give a second glance to an establishment unless the coffee equipment is deemed 'up to scratch' i for one know that all of my nearest coffee competitors in the area, and by that I mean within a say 300m radius, are all running with Synesso (3 places) or La Marzocco (1 place) - and to not take that into consideration when trying to carve a niche in the marketplace seems foolish in the extreem Does that mean that they're producing better coffee? Not necessarily - I doubt that any of the others (ok maybe one but who's counting) spend as much time as I do  with their coffee roaster going through bean selection and working on profiles / blends / winning combinations - but all of the above is largely a hidden factor of what we do, which is mostly behind the scenes A 'great' coffee machine is by no means a rock solid guarantee of great coffee - but it is a very clear and visible statement of intent But like fine tuning an orchestra, it takes a great conductor to bring it all together, often belaying all the work that has taken place behind the scenes, the rehearsals if you will, that are required to bring it all together, and the finished product to market

FreshCoffee2

Pat I doint know if it will make any difference to your thoughtful reply, but while you were composing the above with quote from my first draft, I added to the post. You're quick today, and I wont be making any further changes to the above ! Note however your quote: "...I for one know that all of my nearest coffee competitors in the area, and by that I mean within a say 300m radius, are all running with Synesso (3 places) or La Marzocco (1 place) - and to not take that into consideration when trying to carve a niche in the marketplace seems foolish in the extreem..." You mean you think that the look / apparent spec of the equipment is more important than the coffee you produce? That is exactly what I was saying elsewhere above......cafe owners deciding what image they want to convey, and the quality of the coffee produced seems to be secondary to the fashion statement...or atleast reliant on the currently acceptable fashion statement. I have to cut out of this now because I have some cupping to do but i will take a look in later.

conikal

on 1363649012:

Ask any techie and I think you will find that machines start to fail more frequently after about 18 months when they are in a high volume establishment. Say for example sake, 50 kg a week.  After that clients seem to be forever calling for service as one thing goes wrong after another. And I am not talking bottom end machines, I'm talking machines built using components of good name, in high turnover situations. Failing pressurestats, steam valves, electovalves, touch pads, anti vac valves...etc.

I dont doubt the facts, but it still simply tells me that the equipment is "under engineered" for the use intended, or seriously under maintained ( which i doubt is a majority cause). If a component is unreliable of fails prematurely, it is the wrong component to use. There is plenty of "commercial"  equipment that  functions continuously ..24/7 even,.. with a life expectancy many times that you indicate, ( plenty of 5-8 yr old taxis !), and a host of industrial processes with similar temp/flow control, auto valves, level sensors, Ph monitors , etc etc..that function non stop for months without issue. Its simply a matter of correct design and development.   These "Commercial " coffee machines sound as if they are designed to a price rather than for the actual use they will be expected to perform.

FreshCoffee2

Probably well off topic  now, but what the heck..... They are what they are what they are, and the good manufacturers are always upgrading the level of components as they become available. Also, while some cafes in our market are doing those kinds of kilos, most arent. The salient points are, that in our market "most" "cafe" owners dont do anything with their machines over long periods and expect their service providers to do their thinking for them. Machines become aged and clapped and some even become cockroach castles. People that own their own are reticent to upgrade because of the capital cost (despite that the poor old things have made them hundreds of thousands of dollars turnover over the period). People whose equipment belongs to the supplier will put up their hand, but the supplier cant help but try to wring out as much as they can through equipment whose capital cost is at the end of the day, coming straight off the bottom of the total value of the coffee turnover for the period.  If you change over the equipment at more frequent intervals (for whatever reason), that means more cost has to come off the bottom of the total turnover for the period.  Please, no accounting lessons, we all know nuttins for nuttin....you can account for the equipment any way you like in accounting terms, but at the end of the day if a cafe turns over say $40,000.00 dollars product in 2 years, and the cost to the supplier is to write off a 3 group machine, a couple of grinders, a water filtration unit, 6 umbrellas and 6 wind barriers, 30 uniforms composed of polo shirts and aprons, 100 plus cups, mugs, saucers, glasses and countless FREE service call outs to staff that dont know how to adjust a grinder (and are sabotaging their own product as well as the suppliers) plus to legit service calls, you can take all of that straight off the 40 thou, divide it by the number of kilos used for the period, and see what profit you are really making PER KILO per client.  Its a balancing act, and too many beople think the apparent  cost of a kilo of coffee is zero (ie 100% profit), but after the input cost plus all on costs, the profit made is propping up an entire service/supply business. And of course while its fashionable in discussions in forums to preach that all cafes do or should own their own equipment, the reality is most of them dont.  Specifying "new kid on the block" equipment ups the stakes considerably for suppliers that are expected to supply at their cost, diminishing margins considerably. There are always 2 sides to the story, and it has not much to do with coffee quality in the first instance....its always about money and as stated earlier, its business. Education is the key. Ok got a bit off track there.

Lacehim

Astoria are a CMA brand.  Ultimately it comes down to you having a play I think, and ease of use of your staff. I'm not a machine snob, I like a clean one please, and someone behind it that knows what they are doing. Also what happened to the Linea you decided to restore?  http://www.bestcafes.com.au/forum/projects-rebuilds/la-marzocco-linea-rebuild/msg27583/#msg27583

askthecoffeeguy

on 1363664086:

Astoria are a CMA brand.  Ultimately it comes down to you having a play I think, and ease of use of your staff. I'm not a machine snob, I like a clean one please, and someone behind it that knows what they are doing. Also what happened to the Linea you decided to restore?  http://www.bestcafes.com.au/forum/projects-rebuilds/la-marzocco-linea-rebuild/msg27583/#msg27583

Upfront costs were too prohibitive and being a second hand machine finance was not really an option ...

FreshCoffee2

on 1363651362:

Have to say that I disagree with you there........I would say that there is a considerable coffee clientele who are well informed about coffee machine specifications and capabilities, and the ability to engage these clients on this level promotes a point of difference for a business, and indicates hopefully that the person behind the machine knows what they're talking about, and, combined with a great coffee in the cup, time after time. demonstrates that the owner is passionate about the product they produce.......... ..............I still maintain that certain sections of the media, and the dining public, will not give a second glance to an establishment unless the coffee equipment is deemed 'up to scratch' i for one know that all of my nearest coffee competitors in the area, and by that I mean within a say 300m radius, are all running with Synesso (3 places) or La Marzocco (1 place) - and to not take that into consideration when trying to carve a niche in the marketplace seems foolish in the extreem Does that mean that they're producing better coffee? Not necessarily - I doubt that any of the others (ok maybe one but who's counting) spend as much time as I do  with their coffee roaster going through bean selection and working on profiles / blends / winning combinations - but all of the above is largely a hidden factor of what we do, which is mostly behind the scenes A 'great' coffee machine is by no means a rock solid guarantee of great coffee - but it is a very clear and visible statement of intent.......

How does anyone judge "...great (CAFE) coffee in the cup, time after time..." when the greatest proportion of it is doused in milk? That is to say, how does one judge that it was because of the extra fantastic equipment, able to leap tall buildings in a single bound....if used in a laboratory environment by people in white lab coats? Get the right staff, ambassadors of coffee, competent at their trade, give them a cafe ambient that is conducive to attracting clients, give them a good new coffee machine of whatever kind working properly, and you get the same good cafe quality coffee. If equipment operators feel disadvantaged or insecure because of the brand of coffee machine, then they arent as competent as they think they are...and we live in very strange times. You're already doing that (without the insecurity), and the rest is nothing short of new upmarket style cafe modelling.....the fashion statement. Smoke and mirrors Pat, smoke and mirrors, designed to get business advantage over others. A legitimate reason, but that doesnt make it any less smoke and mirrors, just a shame people are confusing it with "cup quality".