Astoria greenline

askthecoffeeguy

As I said previously a bells and whistles machine is no guarantee of quality coffee - in fact I've had some really crap coffees from some fancy coffee machines, and I'm still incredibly selective about where I choose to spend my hard earned - whch has less to do with the type of equipment being used and more to do with the product in question and the person behind the machine Anyway I feel that this topic is going around in circles a little bit, covering the same old ground but not really marking any new territory At the end of the day it comes down to the judgment of the individual cafe owner, and the cost benefit analysis that they've arrived at, to determine which equipment serves their needs best, and I think reliability and serviciibilty also come into the equation here I for one are exploring my options, trying to determine what represents value for money, and whether or not said machine comes in under budget Im gunna put a ballpark figure of $10k out there for new and or second hand equipment, and I'd be interested to hear from folks what their recommendations would be in this price range?

mycuppa

Pat, I think your approach is a good strategy - always re-inventing and differentiating. $10K is a tricky segment. It's a used ferrari or an up-spec'd BMW. Some of the 2nd-hand high-end machines that have come onto the market over the years have been absolute dogs. I know a cafe that picked up a Sneezio for a reasonable price - but it had been used for 2 years in WA and the water basically killed the machine. Another scored a 2 yo LM Linea only to discover a couple of months later the "brains box" liked to play tricks when it was busy and under a reasonable load - end result was a lot of tears. An early slayer that was a dog and changed hands a few times. And many more that I seen and heard about. Give Wolffy a call - he has a barely used NS WBC T3 - have no idea what he wants for it, but it's a pretty good machine and he might be keen to move it.

askthecoffeeguy

on 1363678205:

Pat, I think your approach is a good strategy - always re-inventing and differentiating. $10K is a tricky segment. It's a used ferrari or an up-spec'd BMW. Some of the 2nd-hand high-end machines that have come onto the market over the years have been absolute dogs. I know a cafe that picked up a Sneezio for a reasonable price - but it had been used for 2 years in WA and the water basically killed the machine. Another scored a 2 yo LM Linea only to discover a couple of months later the "brains box" liked to play tricks when it was busy and under a reasonable load - end result was a lot of tears. An early slayer that was a dog and changed hands a few times. And many more that I seen and heard about. Give Wolffy a call - he has a barely used NS WBC T3 - have no idea what he wants for it, but it's a pretty good machine and he might be keen to move it.

Thanks, Will do - I'm also exploring some options locally and having an in depth discussion on this very topic with my roaster, tomorrow afternoon ... Cheers, Pat

FreshCoffee2

Its only my opinion, but anyone in a good running profitable cafe that buys a used machine to replace a ...used machine...needs to think long and hard about that. Think of a taxi driver wanting to move away from a commodore with a million k's on, and buying something else albeit something that cost more when it was new and is technically more complicated, with....a million k's on. Very false economy buying someone elses cast away. Unless its something genuinely "barely used" as mentioned above, new equipment is the only way to fly if your business is going to rely on it.

askthecoffeeguy

on 1363688296:

Its only my opinion, but anyone in a good running profitable cafe that buys a used machine to replace a ...used machine...needs to think long and hard about that. Think of a taxi driver wanting to move away from a commodore with a million k's on, and buying something else albeit something that cost more when it was new and is technically more complicated, with....a million k's on. Very false economy buying someone elses cast away. Unless its something genuinely "barely used" as mentioned above, new equipment is the only way to fly if your business is going to rely on it.

thats a very good point and one that I'll be taking into account when I make my purchase decision - If I can get a machine new that I like at a price that is right, then I'll certainly be considering that...

askthecoffeeguy

Ok - had a good look at the lineup and a few others the other day, and there were a few pleasant surprises! Firstly the greenline machines were pretty much as expected:  high on functionality, great on temperature stability, and high on user friendly tweak-ability and cool fun things for baristas to play with! But, to me you have to take in the complete package, which includes visual appeal and the look / atmosphere, and impression that you want to convey in your establishment To this end I do not think that the 'look' of the plus 4 U range does justice to the functionality under the hood - there's a lot going on there with separate boilers for each group, and separate programable heating elements in each group.  For an experienced barista with a knowledge of coffee profiles and regional characteristics, there's a lot to like about these machines in terms of the amount of tweaking and fine tuning possible to get the most out of your coffee. Although, to my mind at least it's questionable as to how many baristas out there would actually know what they're doing in this regard, and how many would just be "fluffing" around In all fairness the machines look a lot better in the flesh than they do on the page, and they're customisable in terms of colour schemes - but something in me still feels incredibly squeamish when it comes to plastic finishes on machines Still they're have their place and in terms of functionality and programmability, and at a price which is right,  I'd say that they'd be pretty hard to beat What was even more of a pleasant surprise, to me at least however, was the visual appeal and charm of the Perla volumetric machine - which with its thermocouple group heads and straight forward on / off brew switch for manual extraction appeals to my stripped back and analogue aesthetic - and the price is definitely right... And the Rapallo semi-auto AEP - was definitely the pick of the bunch for me in terms of visual appeal, with its E61 like groups definitely looking the goods Unfortunately there were no lever machines from this range on display, so I can't comment there My only concern with the Rapallo and the Perla volumetric machines is that both would require incredible focus and attention to detail on the part of the barista, in terms of consistency of pours and consistency of product, and I would be reluctant to use either of these machines in an environment where there is more than one or two baristas in total operating the machines, tops I certainly wouldn't want part time casuals experimenting with extraction volumes on customers, who in all likelihood would probably not come back if their coffees were constantly over / under extracted Which is not to say that it can't be done and done well, but I have in mind a particular kind of setup required to make the most out of this equipment, and its not my current setting Although, as I said, I think both are great machines, and I for one would relish the opportunity to set up a concept and fit out which would do justice to these very hands-on machines What's that?  Did someone say get some financial backers behind you?  You'll have to speak up coz I can't quite hear you! Also got to have a look at some other very sexy machines with a price tag to match - but you'll just have to wait and see how that all pans out All I can say is that I have set the balls in motion, and let the cards fall where they may! (Not sure but I thinks that's officially a mixed metaphor) Oh and one other thing, I didn't mind the Gloria plus 4 U, but didn't like the plastic finish, but the boys there said they'd be happy to spray it with a metallic finish if the price were right - so there's some food for thought ...

mycuppa

C'mon Pat. Put us out of our misery. Do tell !

FreshCoffee2

Pat, congrats on writing a very thoughtful, serious  and to my mind realistic list of observations in your post. Well done. Check your PM's. A.

askthecoffeeguy

on 1363959152:

C'mon Pat. Put us out of our misery. Do tell !

Ok I took a look at a Kees van der Westen Mirage Triplette Classic and I instantly fell in love with this machine Why?  Oh its got the looks, no doubt, but its the straight forward no fuss thermocouple technology that appeals to me for great temperature stability, ease of use, and a lack of reliance on digital tricked-up wizardry I'm also reliably told by the service guys that the build quality is very good, so you would, with regular maintenance, hope to get some longevity out of a machine like this - and the 'look'is a timeless classic which, to my mind, will never go out of date There's no done deals yet, though, but I am making some pretty serious enquiries All I can say is watch this space... [attachimg=1]

mycuppa

on 1364043452:

Ok I took a look at a Kees van der Westen Mirage Triplette Classic and I instantly fell in love with this machine Why?  Oh its got the looks, no doubt, but its the straight forward no fuss thermocouple technology that appeals to me for great temperature stability, ease of use, and a lack of reliance on digital tricked-up wizardry I'm also reliably told by the service guys that the build quality is very good, so you would, with regular maintenance, hope to get some longevity out of a machine like this - and the 'look'is a timeless classic which, to my mind, will never go out of date There's no done deals yet, though, but I am making some pretty serious enquiries All I can say is watch this space... [attachimg=1]

Noice.......how will you cope without any built-in shot timers ?

askthecoffeeguy

on 1364046356:

Noice.......how will you cope without any built-in shot timers ?

I dont need shot timers to know if a shot os pouring well or not - but they are a pretty hand reference tool! Worst case scenario - get some of those magnetic digital stopwatches and pop them on the machine!

Koffee_Kosmo

The cafe 3 streets away had one of the Kees Mirage 3 X E61 group head machines Gave them no end of issues and its been replaced with an FB80

mycuppa

Pat - I also know of a cafe in Vic (not one of mine, but located across the road from them) that experienced some issues with a KVW for many weeks - but it seems to have stabilized since then - I have no idea of the details. These things can happen with all types of machines - we had a Synchro that played up persistently for months when it was first installed - lots of headaches and a few 7hr round trips. Love the KVW though - would get one myself actually - pure art and without doubt the most cosmetically beautiful machines on the market.

askthecoffeeguy

I hear your concerns guys - but if I lease to buy this machine its brand new and stil under warranty for the first twelve months, and the end of which I can either pay out the residual, or hand it back and get a new machine Besides I'd want my roaster to have a good look at it first before imame any purchasing decisions Cheers Pat

askthecoffeeguy

and the winner is... brand new La Marzocco Linea PB - the first 'new' Linea in 20yrs, named in honour of Piero Bambi - the designer of same, featuring all sorts of new goodies... my understanding is that they've just landed in the country, and are in fact yet to be released - but I'm certainly putting my hand up for one! why?  retro styling suits the 70's theme of the cafe industrial design and build suitable for the 35 plus kgs of coffee we churn out each week price is right, parts and serviceability is good durable finish is more 'tarnish' resistent than other er... more 'delicate' machines but mostly coz it looks and feels good and I've been impressed with the quality of coffee produced on the Linea - and I've always wanted one to play with! so, no, its not a done deal and its not on the bench yet... and yes, I'm more than a little way down the path to securing one! (may and probably will require a new thread when the time comes)

Brett H

on 1365156978:

and the winner is... brand new La Marzocco Linea PB - the first 'new' Linea in 20yrs, named in honour of Piero Bambi - the designer of same, featuring new styling, mew steam valves and all sorts of goodies... my understanding is that they've just landed in the country, and are in fact yet to be released - but I'm certainly putting my hand up for one! why?  retro styling suits the 70's theme of the cafe industrial design and build suitable for the 35 plus kgs of coffee we churn out each week price is right, parts and serviceability is good durable finish is more 'tarnish' resistent than other er... more 'delicate' machines but mostly coz it looks and feels good and I've been impressed with the quality of coffee produced on the Linea - and I've always wanted one to play with! so, no, its not a done deal and its not on the bench yet... and yes, I'm more than a little way down the path to securing one! (may and probably will require a new thread when the time comes)

We need a new thread with lots of pics!  Congrats... If I'm not jumping the gun... The Mew Steam wands sound great.m evidently this look or hiss like cats, er, right??  :rofl:

askthecoffeeguy

on 1365158922:

We need a new thread with lots of pics!  Congrats... If I'm not jumping the gun... The Mew Steam wands sound great.m evidently this look or hiss like cats, er, right??  :rofl:

yeah, I love to make that baby purr... ops... wrong forum!

askthecoffeeguy

sorry to retro-style my and brett's posts -but I didn't realise that the product was yet to be launched - so i've removed specks and I'll leave you with this little taster instead... http://www.lamarzoccousa.com/tag/linea-pb-av/

askthecoffeeguy

and if anyone asks where i got the specs from in the first place they came from a guy named Tony, right? you didn't hear it from me...

askthecoffeeguy

Hmm.... It appears that the PB may not be available for some time - the quest continues ...

Koffee_Kosmo

on 1365483449:

Hmm.... It appears that the PB may not be available for some time - the quest continues ...

I believe that there is a near new Slayer 3 group on another forum at a reasonable price Caveat Emptor - clear title and the usual checks is in order  KK

mycuppa

on 1365483729:

I believe that there is a near new Slayer 3 group on another forum at a reasonable price Caveat Emptor - clear title and the usual checks is in order  KK

In addition, you should be aware there were a couple of early Slayer's that periodically experienced annoying problems, resulting in frustrating times for their owners. Please note, I'm not inferring that Slayers are unreliable or that the item being offered "over there" is a risk as I have no understanding of it's history.

askthecoffeeguy

I'm only in the market for a new machine as I dont want to buy someone else's problems - plus I'm after the service and serviceability that comes with a new machine - cheers

askthecoffeeguy

News flash : decided to bend the budget a little bit and go with the mirage ! Watch this space !

Koffee_Kosmo

Is it a Kees Van Der Westen Mirage - " Lever Machine " ? [attachimg=1] OR - one of these [attachimg=2]

askthecoffeeguy

Hey KK Decided to go with the E61 type machine as I'm attracted to the looks as well as the functionality My understanding with the lever machines is, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, that the turnaround time between extractions is slower - so they'd not so well suited to high volume environments Also, I believe that the lever machines automatically extract 30ml of coffee - which means I'd need to run another shot on top for long blacks, and all double espresso based coffees

Seeya Latte

Congrats ACg The KVW will definitely bring some wow to your establishment. I know you have thought long and hard on this and I'm sure the machine will earn it's keep for you.

askthecoffeeguy

on 1365600004:

Congrats ACg The KVW will definitely bring some wow to your establishment. I know you have thought long and hard on this and I'm sure the machine will earn it's keep for you.

Cheers for that It's the first machine that really caught my eye for a variety of reasons - so it feels good to come back to that Also I'm pretty confident that the quality of the coffee that we're serving is on par with the best that can be found anywhere, so its good to have a machine that reflects that passion that goes into each cup But as much as anything else I'm often at work ten hours a day - and I need a new coffee challenge to keep me focused and interested in what I'm doing - and I look forward to having a great machine to work with It also serves as a reward to my staff who are amazing, dedicated, and who share my passion for hat I do - which is I think pretty rare in the scheme of things Cheers ACg