VST filter baskets.

Brett H · August 2011

on 1312501464:

Wow I'm tired! Tired because I spent until the wee hours of the morning on Skype with Vince from VST. I would have to say it was a most enlightening conversation even at that hour of night! He spent quite some time going over the science of what's going on during an extraction. I have a much better understanding now of why coffee tastes bitter when it's overextracted, or sour when it's underextracted, how the pH changes during the extraction process and how predictably pleasant the taste can be if the percentage of extraction yield and total dissolved solids is right. I.e. if you measure a sample in a refractometer and it's in the right range you know it'll taste sweet. Of course your tastebuds can tell you that but if the taste is out then the refractometer can tell you what went wrong in the shot, and therefore the precise direction in which you need to go to sort it out. Guesswork adios! This all led into how important a role the filter baskets play in that process. In a previous position the coffee company Vince worked for lost a client whose coffee had suddenly gone sour. The coffee tasted fine on their machine but sour on the client's. They changed water, water filtration, grinder burrs, coffee batch, temperature you name it but the problem persisted so the client walked. Turned out the client had changed their baskets and sure enough when these baskets were tried in a different machine the sourness went with the baskets, and refractometer readings from these baskets came back off the scale no matter what was done with grind, dose, tamp etc! Vince's previous work was in forensic imaging, so it was easy to scan the hole pattern of the basket. It quickly became obvious what the problem was. Apart from varying dramatically in size, some holes were round, some star shaped, some jagged, some completely blocked! This fundamentally affected the way the coffee was extracted which is why it was always tasting sour! This is how the patended scanning process of the basket VST use came about in the first place, and explained why some baskets will yield consistently over or underextracted results, despite the user's efforts (and why people sometimes note an improvement "simply by changing my basket"). I already knew the basket design manufacturing process of the VST unit is critical, and so many factors in the VST baskets (shape, curve angles, material thickness, internal diameter, hole pattern, hole size, hole size consistency etc etc etc) are finely tuned to yield a 'sweet spot' extraction if dosed correctly. But equally important is the imaging system to ensure the baskets are up to spec; if any of those are out the formula doesn't work and the basket won't perform consistently from basket to basket or with different brew parameters. This made me realise that while I or anyone else could (potentially) replicate the design of the VST basket if we could be bothered, without the imaging system to make sure it's all up to scratch there's no way of checking whether the basket will actually perform the way you want it to, both in that basket itself and with any other baskets from the same manufacturer (and that imaging system is patented and used only by VST ). It also reinforced what I said in my previous post that, even if someone was able to get the holes under control, if the shape of the basket is fundamentally compromised then extractions ARE going to suffer, if not all the time then certainly when you change brew parameters. Ultimately like always, let your taste buds be the guide, but realise there's serious work and a pile of science behind these beasts rather than just another basket, plus big names who have used them that are backing their performance. I feel more than ever the advice given to Mark Prince, that if they're not working the way you think they should, the problem's more than likely to be on the user side of the portafilter! Now for some sleep...!

Awesome Greag! You've convinced me! I'll measure my tamper... your tamper... and place an order over the weekend.

gregpullman · August 2011

on 1312504680:

Awesome Greag! You've convinced me! I'll measure my tamper... your tamper... and place an order over the weekend.

It's not a sales pitch, there are others who sell them too, I was just recounting what I learnt from someone who clearly knows what they're talking about. It was a three hour conversation so the above is but a crude summary. But certainly it made me more interested in using these baskets the way they designed them to be used (and in getting my hands on a refractometer), so if it's done the same to you then so much the better.

on 1312509907:

I think I may also be in the market... Bugger, need to do some measurements this weekend ;D Any Crema sponsors selling these

Jetblack do, and CosmoreX can get them if required (last I heard).

beanflying · August 2011

Interesting talking to some industry types in Melbourne yesterday about them. Some have been there done that and already removed them from use. Others have them in use and like them. I was also shown an absolute horror basket last night the holeset was at least 2 mm offset to one side on the basket (certainly not a VST) no way you could ever get a decent extraction out of that one. On a more positive note for me I picked up a small set of Scottie's dosing tools at Padre circa $30 (some of our sponsors carry them too) Tried the #4 today for a start but the #3 (less curve) ended up being the goods for my machine. Still playing with technique but no edge channelling for the last 10 or so coffees. Talking to Tom at Naked Espresso last night he has a convex Tamper and was going to give that a go against his normal flat ones on the VST's on the Mirage. Current status very happy with the resulting shots but still not sure it's worth the extra work if I was making coffees for $$ but with a few more kg practice through them now I have a way to get some consistency back into the distribution that will get easier and faster.

Ronin · August 2011

on 1312408434:

If Ronin is around I think he ordered a couple of different sizes Try a DM as he is busy etc... PS. If ya need your group machined, if it is just fouling OR needs to be Naked, then I am happy to do for you. Anger

I have 18 and 22g VST baskets. I'm sure we can come toa BORROW agreement :D I will need it back tho as I have a project on the way, details posted when more available ;D

gregpullman · August 2011

I had a Synesso basket out today so out of interest took a photo of the holes compared to a VST. This is a comparison of a 100% crop of each of them. The difference speaks for itself. I'm not knocking Synesso baskets, we've sold them for years and have many happy customers (including myself) and the science is such that these may be able to give great results under certain conditions. But it's also true that they wouldn't be able to perform as well across all variations, and if you ever lost one you'd be hard pushed to find another one the same! Greg

RichardM · August 2011

That is an amazing difference. I'm getting a new machine in the next week (second hand Expobar Office Control), and will have to get new basket/Deluxe tamper bottom combo. I was tossing up between VST or Synesso, and was still leaning towards Synesso based on comments until I saw that picture. Double the price, however.....

beanflying · August 2011

Another kg or so in using the dosing tools and I am starting to like the now very consistent results out of the VST's and the resulting shots for flavour. Did some back to back shots with matched grinders today with Synesso Triples against VST 22g close but allowing for it not being blind the VST's have it by a touch for flavour. My current thinking is still the Synessos are a good easy to use basket while the VST's with a good dosing/distribution technique will be better. The downside to the VST is it is easier to get it wrong and get a bad cup than the Synessos so you need to be on your game or you may as well use Synessos.

on 1312876096:

That is an amazing difference. I'm getting a new machine in the next week (second hand Expobar Office Control), and will have to get new basket/Deluxe tamper bottom combo. I was tossing up between VST or Synesso, and was still leaning towards Synesso based on comments until I saw that picture. Double the price, however.....

I would seriously consider grabbing one of each and playing

My hesitations to totally drop the Synessos are based on commercial realities of production speed and the additional care needed by me/staff. For home use time is generally not an issue.

gregpullman · August 2011

on 1312878202:

Another kg or so in using the dosing tools and I am starting to like the now very consistent results out of the VST's and the resulting shots for flavour. Did some back to back shots with matched grinders today with Synesso Triples against VST 22g close but allowing for it not being blind the VST's have it by a touch for flavour. My current thinking is still the Synessos are a good easy to use basket while the VST's with a good dosing/distribution technique will be better. The downside to the VST is it is easier to get it wrong and get a bad cup than the Synessos so you need to be on your game or you may as well use Synessos. I would seriously consider grabbing one of each and playing My hesitations to totally drop the Synessos are based on commercial realities of production speed and the additional care needed by me/staff. For home use time is generally not an issue.

I've been mulling over why, if VSTs are so much better than other baskets, that some of those with ugly looking holes are said to be more forgiving. Surely the VST should work better all the time? I think the scenario is closer than many may think to the case of a pressurised basket vs an unpressurised basket. Consider for a moment a pressurised basket; there is only one (or a few) hole(s) and no matter what you do with the puck the espresso will always come out about the same time and at the same flow rate. That's why pressurised baskets are used (apart from making fake crema) so it *LOOKS* like you're getting a good result from stale beans, poor technique and badly ground coffee. In the same way with an unpressurised basket with some holes in the basket significantly larger than others, it's obvious that the espresso is going to favour coming out of those holes rather than the ones that are nearly blocked, to a point regardless of how bad your dose or levelling technique is. Of course in the case of either basket, the extraction path within the basket (if you could see it) is going to be all over the place - edge channelling, perhaps some swirling, flow crossing from one side of the basket to the other to get to the more open holes etc, all the time mixing the underextracted coffee with the overextracted coffee so when the mixture finally makes it out... it *LOOKS* like the results are good. And to the taste there would be some body and some complexity as you have a mix of underextracted, properly extracted and overextracted coffee. Maybe that may even be pleasant to the taste in which case there's an argument for sticking with it. However when we move to a basket like the VST where the holes are all perfectly evenly sized and positioned and the water has no reason to take one path or the other apart from irregularities in the puck, there's no mask to hide the flaws in your technique. If you underdose on one side then guess what, the coffee's going to flow out of that side first and you'll taste overextraction. If you tamp unevenly you'll get the same result. There's simply no layer of protection to hide behind and hope something else will cater for the deficiencies in technique. Of course if you get the dose / distribution / tamp done properly, then you have even extraction flowing evenly through the whole puck, capable of giving an amazing in-the-cup result because you finally have the puck being evenly extracted so you get all the puck delivering body, sweetness and complexity at the same time. So is it true that a poorly formed basket is more forgiving than a well formed basket? Yes. Just like a pressurised basket is in turn more forgiving than an unpressurised basket. But none of us use that logic as grounds to switch to pressurised baskets because we recognise the unpressurised basket is capable of providing better results if our beans / grind / dose / distribution / tamp is on the money. Take the same argument the next logical step and does it make sense to ditch well formed baskets simply because the poorly formed baskets are more forgiving and better at hiding the problems if we're truly seeking the best in-the-cup result possible? Greg

gregpullman · August 2011

on 1312941871:

In short; YES and NO ;D As per BF or another post... I guess if you after a perceived perfection and have the time to ensure your on the spot every time OR You at home and enjoy pushing the boundries OR You have a drive to expand your taste buds Then go the VST ;D If on the other hand if; Your not so driven, staff are not so focused, customers want consistent and fast TAT etc etc Then stay with what is providing the cup that is delivering you your expected turnover

I guess we need to examine the context of this discussion. This is a coffee enthusiast's forum where we're assuming most of us are trying to get the best results possible. At the mediocrity end of the coffee production world (be that commercial or home) of course there's a place for less-than-ideal equipment such as pressurised baskets and poor unpressurised baskets; but the specialty end of the market, which most of us are at or working towards, is where this sort of thing becomes important. Geeks don't throw away naked portafilters because they show up flaws in their extractions, they use that new information to correct their technique and improve their results. I see these baskets in the same light.

on 1312941871:

NOTE: The thing I would be interested in, is the actual difference in surface area between the two baskets... As this is an important variable!!! My assumption is that it would be a bigger surface area (that is area of missing materials) If so, then it may be that even less head pressure is then required and thus would also have an impact on Dose / Tamp / Flow through the puk and the cup

The total hole area is what you're referring to. VST actually tested 30 baskets with identical part numbers from one of the major filter basket manufacturers. These 30 (supposedly identical) filters had total hole areas ranging from 33 to 110 mm². Imagine having a 3 group machine with a 37, 68 and 103 mm² basket on each group - no wonder they're all going to behave differently! The total hole area on VSTs isn't something I'm privy to (I imagine they'd keep that pretty close to their chest) but whatever it is it's going to be consistent from basket to basket. My guess would be the same as yours that it's going to be greater but it does depend how many big holes happen to be in any given basket you're comparing it to.

blanyon · August 2011

I am torn with these, I love them when they work but in my circumstance I think that my setup wont allow me to get the best out of them. Too often I get poor tasting coffee and I cant figure what I have done differently to before. I understand the theory of why they are better and I can get amazing coffee out of them but at the moment I can't come up with a routine that "works" yet. Might be a case of waiting for a weekend when the kids aren't around and just burn through a couple of kgs of coffee. On the plus side it has focused me on my technique and I am happier than ever with the coffee I am producing (not that I am completely happy mind you). Brett

Ronin · August 2011

on 1312952758:

On the plus side it has focused me on my technique and I am happier than ever with the coffee I am producing (not that I am completely happy mind you).

Ahh the endless pursuit continues grasshopper. Chances are we will never be 'Completly' happy or we wouldn't be here searching now would we ;D If I perfect coffee, I'll quit

Ronin · August 2011

on 1312957355:

Oh so true

And spending more money on toys that just need upgrading anyway. 'Just buy that damn dream machine and be done with it' she said 'OK' said Ronin with a flash and was gone to order it before she changed her mind It's on it's way, but that's another thread when it gets here.

borat123 · August 2011

on 1312940633:

perhaps some swirling, flow crossing from one side of the basket to the other to get to the more open holes etc,

That's exactly what I see with a very fine grind, settling tap or two, updosing and only the lightest of tamping. Mind you, it makes for great 'pour shot' pictures, and still tastes pretty damn good. I'm tempted to give the VST a try, perhaps with a shower screen replacement at the same time.... Greg, do you think the tamper that was sized for the synesso basket will still be a nice fit in the VST?

rosscoroast · August 2011

on 1312940633:

I've been mulling over why, if VSTs are so much better than other baskets, that some of those with ugly looking holes are said to be more forgiving. Surely the VST should work better all the time? I think the scenario is closer than many may think to the case of a pressurised basket vs an unpressurised basket. Consider for a moment a pressurised basket; there is only one (or a few) hole(s) and no matter what you do with the puck the espresso will always come out about the same time and at the same flow rate. That's why pressurised baskets are used (apart from making fake crema) so it *LOOKS* like you're getting a good result from stale beans, poor technique and badly ground coffee. In the same way with an unpressurised basket with some holes in the basket significantly larger than others, it's obvious that the espresso is going to favour coming out of those holes rather than the ones that are nearly blocked, to a point regardless of how bad your dose or levelling technique is. Of course in the case of either basket, the extraction path within the basket (if you could see it) is going to be all over the place - edge channelling, perhaps some swirling, flow crossing from one side of the basket to the other to get to the more open holes etc, all the time mixing the underextracted coffee with the overextracted coffee so when the mixture finally makes it out... it *LOOKS* like the results are good. And to the taste there would be some body and some complexity as you have a mix of underextracted, properly extracted and overextracted coffee. Maybe that may even be pleasant to the taste in which case there's an argument for sticking with it. However when we move to a basket like the VST where the holes are all perfectly evenly sized and positioned and the water has no reason to take one path or the other apart from irregularities in the puck, there's no mask to hide the flaws in your technique. If you underdose on one side then guess what, the coffee's going to flow out of that side first and you'll taste overextraction. If you tamp unevenly you'll get the same result. There's simply no layer of protection to hide behind and hope something else will cater for the deficiencies in technique. Of course if you get the dose / distribution / tamp done properly, then you have even extraction flowing evenly through the whole puck, capable of giving an amazing in-the-cup result because you finally have the puck being evenly extracted so you get all the puck delivering body, sweetness and complexity at the same time. So is it true that a poorly formed basket is more forgiving than a well formed basket? Yes. Just like a pressurised basket is in turn more forgiving than an unpressurised basket. But none of us use that logic as grounds to switch to pressurised baskets because we recognise the unpressurised basket is capable of providing better results if our beans / grind / dose / distribution / tamp is on the money. Take the same argument the next logical step and does it make sense to ditch well formed baskets simply because the poorly formed baskets are more forgiving and better at hiding the problems if we're truly seeking the best in-the-cup result possible?

Greg I have followed forums and reviews worldwide on VST baskets for many months and have refrained from passing comment. Greg i think this article is the most accurate i have read. I have an engineering backgroundand can not understand how some people think a s/s basket with holes can change the taste of coffee. we should all know the basket only retains most of the ground coffee entering the cup. The holes can effect the appearance of the shot BUT it is the variables ABOVE the basket that make the taste, pressure, time,grind, roast tamp,temperature etc. I totally agree VST offer a basket with constant hole area giving same flow rates and shots should be consistant if the other variables are the same. but rough holes as Greg's Photo will hold more small grinds than smooth holes and this could be an advantage or disadvantage [size=8pt]edited by mod to improve readability re " quote code missing / wrong place "[/size]

gregpullman · August 2011

on 1312964923:

That's exactly what I see with a very fine grind, settling tap or two, updosing and only the lightest of tamping. Mind you, it makes for great 'pour shot' pictures, and still tastes pretty damn good. I'm tempted to give the VST a try, perhaps with a shower screen replacement at the same time.... Greg, do you think the tamper that was sized for the synesso basket will still be a nice fit in the VST?

It depends what size Synesso basket it was made for but most of the early Synessos we got were a few tenths of a millimetre bigger than the VSTs are (and VSTs are getting smaller shortly too). If you advise the serial number I can say for sure but statistically it's less likely than likely.

on 1312971530:

Greg I have followed forums and reviews worldwide on VST baskets for many months and have refrained from passing comment. Greg i think this article is the most accurate i have read. I have an engineering backgroundand can not understand how some people think a s/s basket with holes can change the taste of coffee. we should all know the basket only retains most of the ground coffee entering the cup. The holes can effect the appearance of the shot BUT it is the variables ABOVE the basket that make the taste, pressure, time,grind, roast tamp,temperature etc. I totally agree VST offer a basket with constant hole area giving same flow rates and shots should be consistant if the other variables are the same. but rough holes as Greg's Photo will hold more small grinds than smooth holes and this could be an advantage or disadvantage

Thanks Rosscoroast. I have an engineering background too

. The problem with the varying hole diameter is that small holes don't flow much at all obviously so deter water from flowing in that area, and large holes (which are often larger than the coffee particles themselves) pass more sediment (giving a grittier texture) meaning you're relying on the puck to filter the grounds out rather than the filter basket. That in itself isn't automatically a problem other than the fact every puck is going to be a bit different, meaning the quality and style of filtration is going to change from shot to shot -> not what you want if you're after consistency. Greg [size=8pt]edited by mod to improve readability re " quote code missing / wrong place "[/size]

Tango · August 2011

Just wondering Greg whether the VST or Synesso baskets fit the EM6910 group handle? Do you need to modify anything to make them fit? All this talk is so fascinating! Cheers

gregpullman · August 2011

Synessos I know do although the ridged single does not. VSTs I'll have to get back to you but I would say tentatively yes, certainly the depth isn't an issue on the 18g and I would expect the 22 too as the 6910 is a deep portafilter; the only thing I can't check is the spring positioning although we've sold a few to 6910 owners and are yet to hear of any complaints. If they don't fit however there's no modifications we can do unfortunately.

beanflying · August 2011

Mentioned a few posts back is the spring positioning in the handle and the basket height. Greg/Charlie if you could ask or Vince if you are still reading this any plans for a ridgeless basket?

gregpullman · August 2011

Yep we discussed that and I made my recommendations about ridgeless baskets, I do believe it's still on their radar at some point but I wasn't given a timeline.

beanflying · August 2011

Continuing playing with the VST's. Onto the 18g baskets for the last 4 or 5 days instead of the 22g. Interesting issue has showed up radial fracturing of the puck post shot. Using the same distribution/dose technique as with the 22g using Scotties dosing tools. Pour is taking a long time to come into a single stream on the naked when this fracture occurs. Thoughts anyone? Bad phone camera shot too but the fracture still shows up 25% of the way in.

rosscoroast · August 2011

Hi Wondering if any one has any knowledge or experience with Rancilio Silvia micro fine baskets may be part number 40 100 102 Is this a genuine Italian Rancilio part or a US marketing gimmick us web sites say holes are smaller than std and quality is same as VST But shape is same as std basket photos are on a web site along with good hole shots of various std OEM baskets As i am new i am not sure if i can show Site with hole shots please delete if not permitted pidsilvia.com rancilio silvia basket

hazchem · August 2011

on 1313298321:

Hi Wondering if any one has any knowledge or experience with Rancilio Silvia micro fine baskets may be part number 40 100 102 Is this a genuine Italian Rancilio part or a US marketing gimmick us web sites say holes are smaller than std and quality is same as VST But shape is same as std basket photos are on a web site along with good hole shots of various std OEM baskets As i am new i am not sure if i can show Site with hole shots please delete if not permitted pidsilvia.com rancilio silvia basket

never heard of them. I would doubt they are the same quality as VST. The only thing I've seen like a VST basket is the VST baskets I own. Anything else (at this point) is going to be a poor imitation I'd think.

gregpullman · August 2011

Now VST are out there with this technology you can guarantee others will be trying to claim the same sort of product. There's mention earlier in this thread of some baskets from another US supplier which are exactly that. So it wouldn't surprise me if it's exactly what you said, and be prepared for lots of other people to be waving their hand in the air shouting "me too sir"! This is almost a verbatim quote from an earlier post, but the shape of the basket plays an equally important role to the holes. The basket you linked to, as you rightly mention, is the same shape as most other baskets so regardless of how accurate the holes may or may not be, the shape of the basket means the puck is going to extract unevenly making whatever they've done to the holes (if anything) largely irrelevant. As I also mentioned in an earlier post, important as all the manufacturing and design side of it is, that's only half the story; believe it or not, even with all the work VST do there are still variations in the hole pattern of the baskets as they come out of the manufacturing process. Not obvious to the eye, and not necessarily even if you took a photo and visually scanned it. But the issues are there, slight variations in hole sizes / shape which can affect performance. If VST have that problem with everything they do, I'm sure they're not alone. That's why the high-definition imaging / scanning / scoring step is such an important a part of the VST process to ensure all baskets perform the same. You may well have other also-rans selling their baskets for $10 and trying to claim they're VST equivalents, but if there's none of this scanning process (and considering it's patented and adds so much to the cost of manufacture I doubt it would be) there's no way to guarantee basket A is going to perform the same as basket B. This guy on the site you mentioned doesn't even has his facts right. First he says "If you have a PID, but dosing the basket incorrect, you better have no PID." Serious? You're telling me that if you incorrectly dose your basket you're going to get better results in the cup from a temperature curve that fluctuates by 20 degrees C than by 1 degree C? Come on. Then he claims the pictures of ugly holes apply to "All other brands, name brands, and OEMs" which is just plain wrong because VST for one look nothing like that. Lastly, at least one of the copycat manufacturers I know of is just starting with a standard tapering basket that's already made of cheap thin metal, then machines the bottom (making it even thinner) to make it look like the VST. The result is the bottom of the basket bursts through within a few months. Moral of the story is, whenever someone has a good idea that money can be made from, you can be sure others will try to copy the appearance without investing the money into creating a product that performs. If you want the real deal you'd best buy the real deal. Greg

gregpullman · October 2011

on 1313033557:

Yep we discussed that and I made my recommendations about ridgeless baskets, I do believe it's still on their radar at some point but I wasn't given a timeline.

I'm pleased to be able to say that VST have agreed to manufacture ridgeless baskets for us! We're expecting stock of these in the next week or so so stay tuned! 8)

Kelsey · October 2011

Since you're here and I feel like indulging my idle curiosity, is it possible to order a couple of baskets from you and to have them measured for a tamper and either you keep that on file or I do, so that I can later purchase a Nexus when cashflow and the WAF permits?

gregpullman · October 2011

We do this as a matter of course! We keep the dimensions of every base we manufacture, and also of every VST basket we sell. VSTs do vary, though much less than some others, so this is important for us to do so we can continue to match tampers to baskets over time. Greg

Kelsey · October 2011

Thanks Greg! I knew you matched tampers to baskets, but wasn't sure if you were able to keep a basket dimension on file for the future. That's really great, much appreciated.

gregpullman · October 2011

It's only with VSTs we do this because they have a serial number. Other baskets don't so are not trackable. Unfortunately VST do not measure the basket diameter at factory so we've had to set up to do this ourselves on each basket as they come to us.

Kelsey · October 2011

Fair enough. I'll stick with VST then.

coffeehorse · October 2011

on 1319415970:

I'm pleased to be able to say that VST have agreed to manufacture ridgeless baskets for us! We're expecting stock of these in the next week or so so stay tuned! 8)

That is seriously, seriously awesome. Do you have confirmation of sizes? I might have to send my current pullman in to you to get resized a tiny bit, as it gets jammed in the 18g b very easily. Strangely, my calipers keep measuring the basket to have an identical internal diameter to the tamper diameter, which I know can't be the truth! Sadly for lots of us E61 users, the ridge which makes perfect sense on a LM/Synesso dose really makes the 18g basket a slightly 'rough with smooth' proposition. best, CH.

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