VST filter baskets.

askthecoffeeguy · May 2013

I've been using 22g VST baskets on my Mirage for the past two days now with no problems whatsoever - yes they still need to be rinsed regularly to prevent oil build up in the baskets (and resulting thin extractions if the holes are blocked), but no more so than 'ordinary' baskets which also need to be rinsed regularly during heavy use Had a baptism by fire today with the new machine where we were blasting through 3kg of coffee per hour for the better part of the morning and both baskets and machine stood up exceptionally well (not so sure about the old man though but I still ran rings around the grommets !)

C-man · March 2014

Just bumping up an old thread Are VST baskets still the go? and where to get them now? I have EP baskets would they be similar?

Koffee_Kosmo · March 2014

on 1394051339:

Just bumping up an old thread Are VST baskets still the go? and where to get them now? I have EP baskets would they be similar?

Never used them Cman I still use my Synesso The VST are precision laser cut - so if your EP basket is made in a similar way it will be close to the same KK

Lacehim · March 2014

I'll buy your EPs if your "upgrading"

I sold mine with my lever.

Should have kept em! lol. Stock baskets are pretty average on the Oscar. VSTs are some pros and some cons. Some like them, some don't. Personally I think they are too pricey.

Brett H · March 2014

I love my VST 18g and I'm a bit shocked you don't have one C-man. Once you tatted the difference you'll never go back. I do like the Synesso baskets also but VST is the duck's guts. Get Em from Coffeeparts

C-man · March 2014

Any difference between ridged and ridge less performance wise? All mine have ridges now.

Dry_bean. · March 2014

on 1394088544:

Any difference between ridged and ridge less performance wise? All mine have ridges now.

Evening C-Man, My EP baskets are ridgless, VST are ridged, not much in it, I've found little difference other than ridged are perhaps a little harder to knock out.

Brett H · March 2014

Spot on DB! I like the ridgless for exactly that reason.

askthecoffeeguy · March 2014

got totally slammed on the coffee machine today 2 1/2 kg of coffee in an hr! and I have to say that the VST baskets were a bit of a hinderance - coz we updose every shot the baskets were getting clogged with oils and slowing extractions down at first, and running faster towards the end of the pour - but we were just too damn busy to rinse out the baskets until the end of the coffee rush! it slowed things down quite a bit but I cant think of any way around it in the short term - admittedly after the rush was over I did the usual routine clean and back washed the groups with a blind filter (laser cut shower screens as well) - and that worked a treat - but things got crazy there for awhile I have to tell you! P

Brett H · March 2014

What about having spare baskets sitting that can be rotated in. You could even have them sitting in a detergent/caffetto bath to be swaped in and out of at will however its easy for me to sit in my chair and suggest that. I remember getting smashed as a cook and the best suggestion was to sit in the cold room for 2minutes

mycuppa · March 2014

Generally speaking, shots that open up prematurely (or earlier than desired) are due to the combinations of incompatible grind, dose and a bean age that is too fresh (or has not yet adequately stabilized). The design of some baskets, such as VST, can make these issues far more difficult to manage as the baskets are less forgiving because they amplify the problems with the ratio of dissolved solids and the larger apertures of the baskets. The situation can be frustrating, particularly when the coffee is too fresh and the particles are highly volatile. Inspection of the puck is typically one method to help diagnose the problem. There is another technical aspect when shots open up too early and it involves the profile used to roast the beans - simply called under-development when intended use is for espresso extraction. However, this issue can sometimes be overcome by allowing the beans to rest for another 3 or 4 days, running a much finer grind and dosing lower with a shorter shot duration.

Kevohere · March 2014

on 1394849363:

Generally speaking, shots that open up prematurely (or earlier than desired) are due to the combinations of incompatible grind, dose and a bean age that is too fresh (or has not yet adequately stabilized). The design of some baskets, such as VST, can make these issues far more difficult to manage as the baskets are less forgiving because they amplify the problems with the ratio of dissolved solids and the larger apertures of the baskets. The situation can be frustrating, particularly when the coffee is too fresh and the particles are highly volatile. Inspection of the puck is typically one method to help the problem. There is another technical aspect when shots open up too early and it involves the profile used to roast the beans - simply called under-development when intended use is for espresso extraction. However, this issue can sometimes be overcome by allowing the beans to rest for another 3 or 4 days, running a much finer grind and dosing lower with a shorter shot duration.

Thanks for this info mycuppa. Pretty well sums up and explains some of the issues I had been experiencing since I changed roaster (Bemhor to CCR) and machine (Minore IV to Strega) within a few months of each other. I have concluded that leaving the beans until at least 2 weeks post roast, produces nicer shots from the Strega than say. the 4 to 5 days usually considered the "norm". I am finding that the Indian beans are usually "gushers" and really need more time for espresso. I have read not to use VST baskets with the Strega and I can see why from what you say that this is the case on this type of lever machine. I have been grinding as fine as my Mazzer goes and recently went with the lower dose idea and it goes very well. They say to dose 8mm below the basket top on the Strega, which is where I usually go. But, when the beans don't want to play along to that rule I go lower, say 10 mm. How low can I go? Fortunately I gave up the Limbo long ago! :rofl: Ironic isn't it. We roast for fresh coffee, but TOO fresh can cause frustration! :tearhair: "The coffee bean has a distinctive smell that makes you forget how painful it is to be awake"

mycuppa · March 2014

Well there you go Kevo. Unfortunately, there are too many people out their with self-proclaimed expert status that in reality have insufficient industry knowledge or experience. They make statements about all sorts of coffee related "rules" that end up growing legs and turning into urban myths. Sometimes, it can be just an interpretation issue. I used to see a lot of it on forums (not so much on Crema) and these days I just don't have the time or patience to debate. The facts about coffee aging are very simple. The varietal of the bean (or beans in a blend), the way in which it was roasted (method and profile) and the depth of the roast all combine together to govern the critical post-roast development and "best usage window" periods. Some coffees need 9 or more days. Some up to 14. The single biggest issue our industry suffers is the lack of control over extraction/brew. This leads to opinions about coffees, reputation of roasters and baristas, etc. and the whole thing just snow-balls into a series of premature conclusions about who (or what) is good or not. Almost always, it is a "moment of truth" when things are not aligned correctly - or a critical skill is lacking limiting the ability to re-engineer a dynamic solution that compensates for the issue. A great barista can adapt to most conditions - either by adjusting machine temperature, grind, dose and flow of the shot dynamics to improve adverse situations. Of course, you need time to do this and there are moments when you simply cannot "mess" with the settings of your kit because getting the orders done is the most critical aspect and any sort of fine adjustments will only make the situation worse. That old chessnut of coffee age is something I personally run every single day - without fail. It's one of my pet hates. Someone, somewhere is trying to do something with one of my coffees before it has properly developed. Of course, I can provide an elaborate explanation as to why.......some get it, others don't (because they close their mind, or they refuse to believe coffee can require 9 or 10 days development). In my experience, Indian coffees (excluding MM) typically have'nt needed long development periods - in fact I would class them similar to South Americans as most Plantation A's tend to have a relative medium density and the cell structure is not what I would call complex - so you should see usability improve from day 7 or 8 onwards, unless your beans are not developing correctly during roasting - splitting beans and examining under a microscope will give you more clues - as will grinding and comparing the shade of color for ground versus whole bean. You may well find with your Indians that you could have a case of under-developed roast profile (time between 1st and 2nd crack too short) or limited airflow that is affecting the bean development, or you may need to take the Indians darker (which some can handle quite well). As to VST baskets and the Strega - I'm sorry I cannot help you there as I don't have direct experience with the Strega. Although, I can suggest you might want to try Synesso baskets as an alternative simply because I find they are fractionally more forgiving than VST's. I still prefer VST's when it comes to the science of analyzing espresso coffee. My shots are all about quality evaluation rather than production of a customer's beverage order - so I can waste as much as I want or take as long as it needs to get it right.

askthecoffeeguy · March 2014

the coffee blend we use at the cafe has a 30 per cent columbian component and my experience of columbian and sumatran beans for that matter is that they both drink at their best 10 days post roast. As a busy cafe, however, we dont always have the luxury of aging our roast - so instead Ive asked the roaster to roast in advance and to hold back the product for a week prior to delivery, and this has worked a real treat, it also means that, due to increasing demand, there's always product 'ready to go' on the off chance that we sell out during the week (which Im pleased to say has been happening a lot recently but now we've upped our order to compensate) One of the benefits of working with a small(er) independent roaster is that they're (IMHO) very receptive to feedback and able to adapt to changing circumstances 'on the fly' - which makes for happy barista and happy customer!

Brett H · August 2014

I went back to using a ridgeless synesso basket while my VSTs were soaking and being cleaned. First thing I noticed was that the shot ran a bit more freely so I fined up the grind. This possibly has less to do with swapping baskets and more to do the bigger elements like ambient temp/humidity etc. the pour with the synesso baskets looks great and it is really uber consistent. Back to back shots were identical and the later coffees looked just as good. Taste-wise, something's missing. Some of the highlights. I didn't believe it at first so I swapped back. I reckon this would be less evident in milk coffees but if you want the best, and I want the best then stick with the VSTs. Until the next big thing.... Where do I get laser-cut e61 shower screens??

cosmic_couple22 · August 2014

Running 22 gram vst baskets on the slayer paired up with the new Pergtamp, shot after shot of amazing coffee. :thumb: Chester

mycuppa · August 2014

Brett, I am not surprised with what you experienced, although my own personal thoughts on differences for top notes are perhaps not that great, but of course it will depend upon machine, grinder and extraction style. Here is some real comparative information from back-to-back testing using machines, grinders and baskets at the same time - not the rubbish you read on forums elsewhere about people banging on about their god-shots at home. I spend a lot of time during the week and weekend on the road visiting clients and also checking out cafes that are not clients - not selling, but just experiencing and learning. Yesterday, I had not intended to do this, but ended up doing a mini cafe crawl from 1pm through to 7pm with one of my absolutely mad coffee nut customers (he roped me in, yet again). The objective was to find the unofficial best 8oz takeaway cup in Melbourne. We had already had some vigorous debates in the weeks leading up to yesterday in order to narrow down the short-list. I make a habit of asking the geeky barista's at cafes what baskets (type and size) they run, along with volumes in and out, shot times and yields. My friend runs a LM GB5 with Synesso baskets. His brother who owns another quality specialty cafe also runs Synesso baskets on his LM Mistral. They have both been through the use of VST baskets many times over the years but in the end they dumped the VST's for the Synesso baskets because there is less channeling and more consistency with the Synesso baskets compared to the VST. In a busy cafe, you need consistency first and foremost before a possible "high note". As you are pumping out coffees, consistency can and will drop under pressure and other factors like grinders getting hot blades, etc. all contribute to less than ideal shots, or variations that need to be compensated for. Time and again, the Synesso baskets have proved to deliver the best back-to-back consistency. Without doubt In terms of high notes, we have spent hours and hours on the best machines and grinders and compared one basket to the other. When the shots are perfect on each basket, the resultant cup has been impossible to reach a clear and unanimous decision on which basket has the edge - it's always a split decision. Again, we are dealing with personal preferences on cup notes and character, thus we could not agree on which basket produced the best shot. Taking a step to the prosumer level, if I looked at my own home setup of PID multi-boiler machine with Robur-E and Kony-E grinders, I tend to prefer the VST baskets as I am only making a few cups and have plenty of time to sink those that don't measure up. In my mind, when I am at home, first thing in the morning, it's the most important coffee of the day as my palate will be most receptive. There are times when I absolutely curse these damn VST baskets (particularly on a machines that have smaller flow restrictors installed) and these are tempered with my moments of joyous delight when it all magically comes together and works a treat. My sense is that for the majority of home espresso setups, there is perhaps a 50/50 split between the good+great shots versus barely-drinkable shots for those using VST's. Somewhat akin to a roller coaster ride. Is one basket better than the other ? Perhaps. But it will depend upon your goals.

Brett H · August 2014

Brilliant feed back and write-up Jeff! Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and educated observations. I completely understand why cafes would choose the reliable user-friendly option. I too sink anything substandard because, well, I can. That's the difference between a cafe and a coffee snuffler, or the preferred term: enthusiast! We have time on our sides and also access to the begs beans like a bag of Ethiopian Limu I have waiting to turn 7 days before I start using it in the VSTs and extract all the lovely goodness from them >:D

askthecoffeeguy · September 2014

my understanding is that the LM baskets are also laser cut but that they have wider perforation (bigger holes) than the VST which works well in a high volume environment as there's less likelihood of them becoming clogged with residual oils during a rush - when you're usually too busy to clean the baskets on the fly anyway...

Lwowiak · December 2014

VST baskets in Lever machines With my lever machine I have the typical double basket that holds around 14-15g of coffee. The edges taper inwards, unlike the VST that has a 90 degree "corner". I also have a larger basket that holds 18-20g. It resembles the shape of the VST, but I have no idea of what the brand is. I use the larger "triple" basket. The Bosco has a low showerscreen, so the traditional method of filling a basket to the rim is not ideal, and results in overdosing. I am interested in giving the VST a go, and wonder if any Londinium L1 owners have used a VST with their setup. If so, I would like to here from them. It seems (from reading the web) that a VST requires an exact dose to perform properly, etc etc.... Some claim only "x" grinder is suitable, and progressive tamping is required...... I follow a simplistic approach, as it always yields the best results. I need another basket, and wonder if the VST will be too much of a pain??? My other question is, as you have to underdose the VST when paired to a Bosco, how does it affect the pour and the result? Any comments, thoughts, impressions or otherwise are welcome.

Dry_bean. · December 2014

on 1418183771:

VST baskets in Lever machines With my lever machine I have the typical double basket that holds around 14-15g of coffee. The edges taper inwards, unlike the VST that has a 90 degree "corner". I also have a larger basket that holds 18-20g. It resembles the shape of the VST, but I have no idea of what the brand is. I use the larger "triple" basket. The Bosco has a low showerscreen, so the traditional method of filling a basket to the rim is not ideal, and results in overdosing. I am interested in giving the VST a go, and wonder if any Londinium L1 owners have used a VST with their setup. If so, I would like to here from them. It seems (from reading the web) that a VST requires an exact dose to perform properly, etc etc.... Some claim only "x" grinder is suitable, and progressive tamping is required...... I follow a simplistic approach, as it always yields the best results. I need another basket, and wonder if the VST will be too much of a pain??? My other question is, as you have to underdose the VST when paired to a Bosco, how does it affect the pour and the result? Any comments, thoughts, impressions or otherwise are welcome.

G'Day Lwowiak, Seems the Londinium like the Bezzera Galatea has a low set shower screen, I need to leave a gap of approx 8mm from the basket rim so that the puck does not contact the screen. I have both VST and Precision baskets in 18 gram and a Precision 22 gram. There really is little to separate the 18 gram baskets, perhaps the VST requires a little more care, regardless, of the two my preference is for the Precision, just seems a little more forgiving, having said that, if I lost the Precision tomorrow I could quite happily live with the VST. I don't use the 22 gram basket at all.

Lwowiak · December 2014

Hi Jon, Thanks for the reply. With your 18g VST, how much coffee do you use to correctly dose the basket, when making espresso? EG what is the weight of the coffee in the basket?

Brett H · December 2014

LW, I'm in western suburbs Brisbane and have a spare 18g vst. I use it as my dose gauge. If you're passing through you're welcome to borrow it! PM if that's of interest.

Dry_bean. · December 2014

on 1418204725:

Hi Jon, Thanks for the reply. With your 18g VST, how much coffee do you use to correctly dose the basket, when making espresso? EG what is the weight of the coffee in the basket?

I use 18 grams in both the VST and Precision baskets.

cosmic_couple22 · December 2014

Most of the hard core VST gurus (I use that term very loosely) that quantify results based on yields and refractometers recommend just a slight updose on VST baskets. I think for the 18 they say 18.2 or 18.4 grams (will have to go searching for the article) That said rule 1 applies - do what works for your machine and gets you a great result in the cup. Don't be afraid though to play with small gram adjustments and see the cause and effect in your cup. Currently I am running 21 grams in a 22gram VST using a perger tamp, nutating style through the Slayer with great results. Still the best thing with VST is not only the even extraction but the information they give you about dispersion when you use them naked. (the portafilter that is, not me) :D Chester

Dry_bean. · December 2014

on 1418255146:

Most of the hard core VST gurus (I use that term very loosely) that quantify results based on yields and refractometers recommend just a slight updose on VST baskets. I think for the 18 they say 18.2 or 18.4 grams (will have to go searching for the article)

18.2 to 18.4! now we're really splitting hairs. Notice the VST thread over on CS has run to 470 posts and some of them rival War and peace for length, quite a saga. ::)

Brett H · December 2014

I love the vst and won't use anything else: yep, I've got many of the others: synesso, precision, ridged, ribbed

I reckon stuff that's a saga on a commercial site must make less money for those that own it (I've not read that thread so it's merely a generalisation from being a member of commercial threads for lapidary etc) I use the VST naked and none of my other baskets come close to its evenness of extraction especiall with lower viscosity yummy extractions.

Naki^chap · December 2014

+1 for the VST , I also have a number of different brand baskets but the 20g vst is my favourite, I generally dose around 19-20g in it, and I found my Pullman concave tamper combined with a light tamp gives me the most consisitant extraction from the naked, my flat bottom tamper causes a donut extraction a lot of the time, its probably my distribution technique causing this, but with the concave I just dose to a mound ,light tap on the bench, level off , light tamp, lock it in and good to go.

Lwowiak · December 2014

on 1418209056:

LW, I'm in western suburbs Brisbane and have a spare 18g vst. I use it as my dose gauge. If you're passing through you're welcome to borrow it! PM if that's of interest.

Brett, That is a very kind and generous gesture. I will take you up on it and will PM you later. Regards L

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