Ponte Vecchio Lusso - Seal change HELP?

Moon

Oh Man .. you won't believe the next instalment The Car Jack method - I'm still recovering 😢 Thought I finally had it licked ... put it all back together feeling relieved .. went to pull the lever down and it was locked... oh no .. you're kidding me John Cleese from Monty Python couldn't have written the script better. It's like a Rollercoaster ride with no upside. I really need a Coffee ... but will have to make do with a cup of Tea, a Bex .. and a lay down I think. The journey continues ...... tomorrow :🙂 ps. This is no made up story folks .... it's the real deal .. trust me ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Did notice one of the seals had changed its shape .. should have rectified it before putting back together. Taken it out and getting it sorted .. will at least be a lot easier now that I 'think' I know what's going on :rofl: Fingers crossed n all that Still in the race .. Moony ain't chucking in the towel yet. You'll know when things are at breaking point when I reach into the cupboard for that stale jar of Robert Timms instant coffee that's been there at least 4 years

Moon

Hmmm? That's interesting - now that the seal is in correctly, the piston rod doesn't sit as high in the cylinder .. which means I now can't get the Car Jack underneath it. Ok .. nothing like a new challenge is there? Might have to go back to the F-clamp to compress the spring enough to get the Jack underneath .. and somehow remove the F-clamp. Nice... I'm sure that will go without a hitch. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- False alarm .. found the problem. Now I recall .. Jack mentioned tucking the edges of the first seal in so that it slips into the cylinder in the correct position. This seal flares out wider than the cylinder width. This explains why the seal ended up inside out .. which wasn't the way I had put it in. now the piston slides up the cylinder more .. and I will be able to get the Car Jack under it. oooh ... I can almost smell the coffee I had a new delivery of 3 different types of Green beans to roast up. The next day the machine went down. It was my fault .. not the Lusso

Koffee_Kosmo

Will you please go to a local auto parts store and get a harmonic balancer puller What you are doing is not safe, and I don't want to be sending a get well card to a hospital Please for me :tearhair: KK

Moon

Just ordered one from eBay .. will arrive mid next week. Thanks for that KK As it turned out .. the last seal that had to go into the cylinder needed to be tucked in .. which can't be done unless you have clear access when it enters when the spring is under compression. With the Jack I couldn't see or get to it .. and the seal got twisted and jammed, not allowing it to move up the cylinder when the lever is pulled. I was stuffed The puller setup allows this .. so great news there. Thanks for the help :thumb: In the meantime I'll stick with the coffee from the local Cafe for another week. It is really nice Coffee :coffee2:

Brett_H

KK, you are a first class fitter!

Moon

Yeah .. he is ---> heats off :thumb: There you go folks ... that's why this Coffee forum is good .. smart advice .. avoids doing your head in... which is good 8) I guess those Green beans will have to wait a little longer to start being consumed.

Brett_H

You know... many of us have plungers, syphons or moka pots. They're inexpensive and they while they're not espresso they are wonderful fun and tastes.

FreshCoffee2

amen to that 😉

Moon

Oh yeah ... I picked up a small one cup plunger ages ago .. have been using it for Tea. I got it a while ago when Brett suggested it for Coffee - to give it a try. Whilst it does not come close to the espresso, imho ... it is still good enough for the extra Coffee when feeling like one. It would give me a reason to crank up the ol' Spong No4 hand grinder ... hmm .. nice idea :thumb:

Moon

The harmonic pulley arrived today .. so got busy to change the seals It certainly made the procedure less difficult Got it all back together and went to put the Group seal in .. it was loose and fell out. Ok .. it may need the machine to heat up to expand it so that it sits in place .... nope I asked the Guy from the Cafe in Italy that Ponte Vecchio themselves recommended to get the seals as they only sell to Retailers He didn't give me his name after I asked for it ... anyway, I emailed that the seals may be different in the Group 1 and Group 2 PV Lussos and could he confirm that the seals in the kit would fit my Group 1 machine.. because Jack from Sorrentina once said that when ordering seals from Ponte Vecchio Lusso for the Group 2 machines he was selling .. they sent him seals that didn't fit .. and he had to reorder the correct ones. This is why I asked. The Guy emailed me a diagram showing the part number .. and told me .. ''The Group 1 and 2 are the same'' Apparently they are not. After waiting all this time .. and going through the process several times .. I fall over on the last hurdle The other strange thing is that for some reason .. the shower screen would not snap into place .. with or without the seal in place. Anyone PV Lusso owner have one of those reject seals lying around in a drawer? :head:

Koffee_Kosmo

Well the recommended tool worked :thumb: I will ask some questions now Have you used food grade rubber lube ? Have you placed the seals in hot water to make them supple Some seals only fit one way - Check if the seal has a rounded forward edge on one side Can you measure the difference between the old and new seals as a discrepancy of 0.5 mm may be all that is needed to stop the seals from going in And with that info you can ask the seller to check the measurements before they send an alternative set You need Inside Diameter ID & Outside Diameter OD & Thickness of top to bottom KK

Moon

Hi KK Yeah ... got some food grade lubricant and put the new seal in boiling water to soften it .. but no luck there. The old seal was damaged on one side and the other side looked ok .. so I put that back in with the good side up. Seems to be working ok .. the pour was a bit fast the first time but adjusted the grind and made a nice coffee. It's all a bit odd .. but being able to make a decent cup of coffee again ... I'm happy. It is actually nicer than the coffee I've been getting from the Cafe this last month :coffee2: And thanks heaps for the help with the Harmonic puller - couldn't have done it without ya :thumb: Larfin :rofl:

Koffee_Kosmo

Did you get the measurements Because you will need a set of seals sooner than later KK

Moon

No .. I haven't taken the measurements of the seal as yet The Cafe Guy in Italy emailed me back to say he had confirmed with the manufacturer that the seals for the Group 1 and 2 are the same .. and that they will be contacting me. I had sent an email to Ponte Vecchio to confirm this as well *The Harmonic balancer worked exactly the same as in the Video that Deegee posted :thumb: You still have to tuck seals 1 and 3 in to stop them from flaring when first entering the cylinder. I'll be checking the sizes of seals used for other brands available in Australia. Close maybe close enough And yeah ... using an old seal wasn't my first preference :-[ Edit: Just ordered a different lubricant .. current is synthetic .. new one is silicone. Not sure whether I didn't use enough or it is inferior. The lever is jerky so it is not lubricated properly. I'll have to pull it apart and do it again .. otherwise the new piston seals will wear quickly. At least it is not difficult now with the new tool.

Moon

Update :thumb: The food grade Silicone lubricant arrived today. While I was at it .. I took the old damaged seal out to try the new one again, as the old one was a bit loose but stayed in place up in the Group. After making a Coffee .. it glued itself firmly in to place .. so I figured I'd add some extra silicone lube on the new seal to hopefully prevent it from dropping and make a coffee .. expecting it to do the same and fix itself into place .. which it did. Seems like when using the lever, it creates a vacuum and then sucks the seal into position. It would've been handy to have a note in with the seal kit to explain this. When checking the seals and inside surface of the cylinder .. there was still a thin coat of the first lubricant .. which I'm guessing should have been enough for the piston/lever to rise smoothly .. only it was very jerky. After putting a lavish amount of the new silicone lubricant into the cylinder and on the piston seals .. it was still a bit jerky, but not as much. I figure they will break in gradually after more use. The crema was much better and apart from the jerkiness .. everything else seems to be back to normal. The coffee was top shelf. The key was using the Harmonic balancer tool, making sure the top and bottom seals are tucked in .. and taking a look at the video. You need to use a block of wood and drill a large hole in it. Many thanks to KK ... and deegee for the assistance and good advice (and Brett for suggesting a jig .. which was on the money) Oh yeah Baby - you don't realize how good we have it .. until it is taken away :coffee2: The other good news .. is that next time .. I now know what's going on .. and the process will be a whole lot easier .. which is good

Koffee_Kosmo

Glad all is well again Glad my advice helped you simplify the process with safety, drinking coffee again and kept you alive Now on to some more advice about lubricants My advice is to search for a lube the manufactures use Failing that, search for these parameters food grade hi temp anti seize for pressure vessel rubber or nitrate I'm fairly sure that's what the manufacturers would specify & use Also not sure how smooth your cylinder is So if you are contemplating another strip down in the near future, you can get a cylinder hone that fits in a drill and you can re-surface the cylinder Honing is used in brake , motor and other cylinders See videos on YouTube if you like KK

Moon

This is the lubricant I used this time .. in the 28g tube http://haynesmfg.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Technical-Data-Sheet_Lubri-Film-SprayTube-Cartridge-Drum.pdf

Moon

Update The Group seal fell out of the Group head again today. When flushing out the machine after making a coffee the water was very cloudy with some slick film floating on top. Not a good look. I filled up the boiler again, heated it up and gave it another flush. It was less .. but still cloudy. I checked the inside of the cylinder and felt to see how much of the lubricant was still on the inside surface. There was still a very thin film .. so it appears some of it ended up in my coffee this morning. The cartridge in my bench top water filter has recently been changed .. so the water going in is clean. Seeing the new seal fell out .. I will put the old damaged one back in again and see how that goes. I have let the manufacturer .. Ponte Vecchio know .. but not expecting a solution from them .. so all I can do, is to look around at other brands to see if they use the size I need for my machine. Measurements Cylinder diameter that seal fits around = 42mm Inside diameter of seal = 43.5mm These measurements may not be exact .. but the difference of 1.5mm is clear that the seal is not the correct size for this machine. It should be a snug fit Ponte Vecchio seems to have changed the seals .. as the new one was visibly thinner. When locking the PF onto the group .. it sat straight out at 6 o-clock. With the new one in .. you had to turn it further to around 4 o-clock. Maybe I should start thinking about an upgrade .. buy it locally, and get some after sales service :lamp: Just made a coffee using the old seal. Hmmm .. still makes a damn nice coffee .. I must say.

Koffee_Kosmo

Regarding you lube issues That's what the Anti Sieze spec is for - the lube does not move As for your seal dilemma - Then I suggest you visit a local business that services the engineering trade They will have just about any seals you need and if not they order them in Apart form size ( take seals in with you ) This will be your specification The seal type the Lusso uses falls in this class - Dynamic Seal - Reciprocating - high pressure - high temp Also see this materials guide just to learn a few things about seals http://www.marcorubber.com/materialguide.htm I had a look at these Lusso images and have based my recomendations on them http://www.francescoceccarelli.eu/Macchine/Sama/sama_lusso_eng.htm KK

Moon

Yep .. that is my Lusso. Funny .. I looked at the pic of the piston seals as to which way they were sitting ..... oops I then went back to Jacks detailed thread over on CS to read the part that said the bottom and top seals V are pointing up and the middle V down I took the V pointing up as the flair (wider part) goes up on the bottom and top seal. Apparently it is the other way around .. might explain why the rod in the piston isn't sliding smoothly. Even Jacks pics are confusing me as to which way they are sitting. Surely I looked at which way they sat after I took the piston out .... surely .. how could I not. Rec'd email back from the Cafe I purchased the seals from. I had included the measurements. Oh .. the original gaskets .. you'll have to contact Ponte Vecchio <---- wtf .. they've changed (not that I hadn't figured that out) The machine is only 3 years old. Love it when they do that. I mean .. why would I be wanting a replacement set of seals for a relatively new machine. It's not like a 3 yo is an antique. Strange they don't ask you. Time to pull it apart again ... fun times :tearhair: Nah .. stuff it .. I'll do after my morning :coffee2: