Ponte Vecchio Lusso - advice please?

Koffee_Kosmo

A fine job on the PF  :thumb: Now you can observe your technique by sight KK

Moon

^ Cheers  It's all coming together nicely now thanks to all of the information on the coffee forums over the past 6 weeks or so .. and especially the assistance I've been receiving on this forum. The tip by littleroundman to try polish only has made a big difference. I had previously believed that a fairly heavy tamp was necessary to slow the pour down .. after reading about 30lb of pressure in the forums, but now realize that this is not necessary.. although I haven't yet got around to actually timing the pour. Last couple of cuppas I have tried using a very light tamp after half filling the basket ... and another very light tamp and polish when full. I have backed the grind setting off a couple of increments so that the grinds are not quite so fine. A bit more tweaking here and there and I should be pretty right .. with perhaps only slight adjustment needed depending on the type of beans I'm using? To get the really nice micro foam .. I've found that the boiler pressure needs to be at 1.1 bar (resting) and not drop back too far when turning on the steam wand. Sometimes it loses pressure, drops right back and will blow large bubbles in the milk, so you need to wait until the pressure increases back to the 1.1 bar and doesn't drop back much when you begin steaming the milk. I open the steam wand to release the 'false pressure' after turning the machine on .. and it has reached 1.1 bar when the red indicator /power light goes off. Opening the steam briefly can either drop the pressure slightly or significantly.  You also have to keep an eye on the water level.. and not fill it up too high .. as it needs headroom in the boiler to accumulate the steam for frothing the milk. I fill the boiler using filtered water when it gets down to around 40% ..  and fill to 80-90%.

---

It's funny .. It doesn't seem that long ago when I was on a coffee forum arguing the virtues of a double-walled pressurized basket I was using in my $200 Sunbeam I bought from Myers. Even funnier .. was that I thought the coffees I was making back then were fantastic. I can now understand what the coffee gurus must've been thinking at the time --> 'Get a load of this turkey'

Moon

Ahhh ... just found the 'sweet' spot  :thumb: This is how it's working for me.. Backed the grind off a tad more. Weigh 19g of beans Very light tamp half way .. very light tamp & polish .. to 3mm from top of basket. Pull lever down .. hold for 10 secs .. release lever .. when drops appear .. pull lever down fully and release .. when lever gets to 3/4 up ... pull down fully & release .. remove cup when lever is 3/4 complete. Using 'mycuppa' (sponsor) espresso beans. WOW Man! ..  :coffee2: Never had it so good 8)

C-man

I am a sucker for a happy ending.....

Moon

on 1384569472:

I am a sucker for a happy ending.....

Yes .. but this is only the beginning of a beautiful relationship .. C-man, as you would be well aware? Until now .. it has been well documented about a Man's love for his.. * Football team * His car * His Dog * His Beer * His big screen Plasma * His Man cave * His tools (yep .. and those in his garage too) * Heck .. even (at times) his wife and children What needs to be acknowledged .. is his love of coffee .. and his coffee equipment. It is a relationship to be truly celebrated .. and there will come a day, because his love is so strong, when he can legally get married to his coffee machine (& grinder) Amen

---

i took some photos of a pour through my new naked PF to post up .. only they came out blurry. It was a ripper .. only unfortunately, I was all caffeined out after drinking it .. so I had to pass on the take 2.  :coffee:

Moon

Pics using (little's) polish only method Attachment not found.

Moon

.Attachment not found.

Brett H

YUMMY!!!!

littleroundman

on 1384650383:

.Attachment not found.

YMMV, but I abandoned the Fellini entirely and use only full movements, even for espresso or ristrettos

Moon

on 1384667422:

YMMV, but I abandoned the Fellini entirely and use only full movements, even for espresso or ristrettos

I'm wondering if it suits what I'm after? After the grinds have been initially pre-infused, the best and most richest coffee/crema will come from the first complete retraction of the lever. By interrupting this halfway through and flooding the chamber with water dilutes the pour that would have otherwise been full strength. The only reason why a Fellini move is used is to boost volume which sacrifices quality by diluting it. I'm only guessing .. but like you, I'm thinking it's best to allow the first pull to be completed, and then if you want to add a bit more volume .. go the 2nd pull and remove your cup say 1/4, 1/3, 1/2 way through. Interrupting that first extraction seems kinda criminal.

---

I liked your polish only tamp .. for the extraction from the 1st pull of the lever .. only not for the 2nd so far .. it tends to pour a bit too quickly. I have gone back the other way and trying a finer grind .. so will see if this sorts it out? From what I have gathered .. slowing down the pour is supposed to be in the grind setting rather than the tamp. In the past .. I have tried to avoid adding diluted coffee to my cup. An example would be going to a Cafe and asking for a double shot. Some will double up the coffee grinds and .. shock horror .. some will interpret double shot as meaning press the button twice so that a double amount of water goes through the same grinds. Man ..  I hate that. They do the same when you ask for it strong .. oh but it's stronger .. as in there's more caffeine in the cup, which is true, only watering it down further using already spent grinds affects the richness of flavour .. and turns it yukky imho.

C-man

I asked the question before about the Fellini and interrupting the extraction and it was never answered. I would rather have 2 smaller ones

Moon

on 1384717728:

I asked the question before about the Fellini and interrupting the extraction and it was never answered. I would rather have 2 smaller ones

Obviously not in this thread .... how dare they lol Just tried a full extraction on the 1st pull (20ml) and a half on the 2nd (10ml) = 30ml This was very nice .. and although still in the trial stage as to whether I prefer the 1 1/2 (30ml) extraction to the full 2 (40ml) in my std sized lattes .. my early thoughts are that I prefer the 30ml?

conikal

What you are discussing here is the difference between a "standard" espresso shot  (40+ ml from 19gm of beans) , ..and a "ristretto"  shot ( 15-20ml from 19 gms of beans) There is a very different balance of flavours between them. Have you tried the "Thirds" split shot test ? Set up a normal 30 sec shot ready to pull.. Have 3 small shot glasses ready, and as the shot pours collect the first 10 ses in one glass, switch a 2nd glass in for the next 10 secs, and the 3rd glass for the last 10 secs. Taste each separately, and compare to a "standard " full 30sec pour.

Lacehim

on 1384730763:

Obviously not in this thread .... how dare they lol Just tried a full extraction on the 1st pull (20ml) and a half on the 2nd (10ml) = 30ml This was very nice .. and although still in the trial stage as to whether I prefer the 1 1/2 (30ml) extraction to the full 2 (40ml) in my std sized lattes .. my early thoughts are that I prefer the 30ml?

He probably asked me.  The felini is great for smaller levers, but I only tried it once on the commerical lever for a laugh!  It's not required, nearly ripped my arm off, and was never repeated again. Moon, you are doing exactly what I was doing by pulling the lever down just as the drops started to show. Great nakid by the way.  The spouts are useless, whey the bother with them I don't know!

Moon

on 1384731630:

There is a very different balance of flavours between them. Have you tried the "Thirds" split shot test ? Taste each separately, and compare to a "standard " full 30sec pour.

As part of the education process, I will definitely try it .. cheers Conikal

on 1384736388:

The felini is great for smaller levers..

Yeah .. because of the small group and shot volume of the Lussos

on 1384736388:

Great nakid by the way.

Thanks .. it turned out as good as I'd hoped it would. Watching your extraction/pour is thrilling stuff indeed. Using a lever machine with a naked PF .. takes the Art of coffee making to a whole new level. It's a wonder they don't give you the option of choosing a naked, std, single or double spout PF for your shopping basket .. or at least as an after sales accessory?

on 1384736388:

... nearly ripped my arm off, and was never repeated again.

Lol .. sounds like a good call. I'm enjoying 'mycuppas' roasted beans .. so giving the home roasting a break for a while. Perhaps the next step could be to upgrade from the $30 popper to say, a Behmor? .. only the green beans I usually get are around $18 kilo .. and roasted are $25 ish .. so it's hardly worth it when you purchase from a dealer you know doesn't sell the stale gear. It would still be handy to have some green beans in reserve for those times when you get caught out  :'(

Lacehim

on 1384739792:

I'm enjoying 'mycuppas' roasted beans .. so giving the home roasting a break for a while. Perhaps the next step could be to upgrade from the $30 popper to say, a Behmor? .. only the green beans I usually get are around $18 kilo .. and roasted are $25 ish .. so it's hardly worth it when you purchase from a dealer you know doesn't sell the stale gear. It would still be handy to have some green beans in reserve for those times when you get caught out  :'(

mycuppa is great!  Got some coming my way courtesy of C-Man who lives near by.  We share the postage! Re green beans, you can't beat beangreen.  They are a site sponsor, but everyone here uses them.  Free delivery over $75 and Brendan is easy to deal with.  They also stock a lot of different beans, and they are good quality! I would skip the Behmor myself.  Yes I know they have a great following, but I like the KKTO for it's controlability, useability, and ease of replacement parts when needed.  You can build one yourself quite easily.  Talk to KosmoKoffee about it, he designed it and sells the bits!

Moon

on 1384743633:

mycuppa is great!  Got some coming my way courtesy of C-Man who lives near by.  We share the postage! Re green beans, you can't beat beangreen.  They are a site sponsor, but everyone here uses them.  Free delivery over $75 and Brendan is easy to deal with.

I'm doing all of my testing with mycuppa's 'Barista' & 'Espresso' beans. Can't help but be impressed by what J has achieved in the 'Golden Bean' competitions. Yeah ..I've bean getting my green beans from bean green too .. and taking advantage of their free delivery over $50 .. oh waite .. yep .. it's now $75. My first couple of orders were just over $50 .. but of late around $80

on 1384743633:

They are a site sponsor, but everyone here uses them.  Free delivery over $75 and Brendan is easy to deal with.

*Do Sponsors give forum members any special deals that aren't available to the general public? :angel: An example:  A bag of beans that scored in the 'Cup of Excellence' being offered to members of less than 12 months at a 10% discount, and members longer than 12 months (with say more than 200 posts) at a 15-20% discount? This sort of thing would encourage both membership & participation. Just a thought? I read somewhere about KKs roaster .. will have to chase up and read the reviews?

Brett H

Hi Moon, I shop with the sponsors here not necessarily to save money but for amazing attention to detail and service from the best in the business.  That their prices are largely unbeatable without discount is a pretty good bonus.  :angel: Having said that if you stick around specials do come around occasionally.  :coffee2:

littleroundman

on 1384730763:

This was very nice .. and although still in the trial stage as to whether I prefer the 1 1/2 (30ml) extraction to the full 2 (40ml) in my std sized lattes .. my early thoughts are that I prefer the 30ml?

I gave up trying to introduce another variable into the equation with varying the pulls. I buy my beans through a local (West Australian) roaster and usually buy 2 different S/O beans a fortnight. Experimenting brought me to the stage where now all I need to alter is the grind, and even then by a max of + or - up to 3 clicks of the Tranquillo, depending on the bean and/or atmospheric conditions. Other than that, my routine is constant * slowish first pull so as not to blast the puck * hold until the first few drops (usually around 7 to 10 seconds} * release lever and allow to fully return * second full pull, then, giving me "around" 25 to 30 ml with definitely no blonding. * a third pull will "usually" give me a 25 to 30 ml espresso and a 10 - 15 ristretto with blonding just starting to show ** my taste is for slightly under extracted rather than over extracted and DEFINITELY not in the 40ml range YMMV ** I am one of those Australians who were forced to drink 1/3 of a pint of (usually) warm milk in primary school every day, so IF I drink a milk drink the coffee has to be dominant feature. Again, YMMV

Moon

on 1384762183:

I gave up trying to introduce another variable into the equation with varying the pulls. ** DEFINITELY not in the 40ml range YMMV *** I am one of those Australians who were forced to drink 1/3 of a pint of (usually) warm milk in primary school every day, so IF I drink a milk drink the coffee has to be dominant feature.

---

** I'm trying to establish whether I am 30ml or 40ml? Once figuring out what appeals more .. I can tick that box and move on to sorting out other variables. *** I am too .. same deal, plain milk and then noticing another school down the road gets strawberry and chocolate flavored. wtf. I enjoy both 30 & 40ml, although 40ml is probably better suited to having a coffee in a mug .. something you are not supposed to admit around here lol.. it is about refining my preferences in order to achieve some consistency at this early stage. Having said that though, you start losing your sensitivity and enjoyment if you have the same thing over & over. It's better to keep sharp and on your toes than to be Tom Hanks doing Groundhog Day... well, unless you're paid $30 Million to do it like he was. Like partners .. we're just not meant to be drinking the same ground up bean made in exactly the same way every day for 40+ years straight.

littleroundman

on 1384764251:

---

Like partners .. we're just not meant to be drinking the same ground up bean made in exactly the same way every day for 40+ years straight.

I give thanks I live in Australia all the time. A different coffee, from a different region and a different country roasted locally every week or so. What a hobby.

Moon

Here are some shots using a 'polish only' tamp with 1 lever pull for a 20 ml ristretto shot. Attachment not found.

Moon

beans are mycuppa espresso Like Italian fashion models -- you never sick of admiring them.. This one is later in the pour Attachment not found.

Moon

Attachment not found.

Moon

What's the correct pour time for the first lever pull on a Lusso with a 45mm double basket? i'm using 18g and polish only tamp. It has been 50 secs for the first 20ml .. and tasted a bit too strong and a tad bitter in my 4oz (114ml) latte.. so I backed the grind off quite a bit to become more course .. in order to speed it up. This measure only shaved 5 secs off the pour - which was 45 secs. From pre-infusion when the lever is pulled down after the first drop appeared .. the lever is then released .. the timing starting from when the lever met resistance. Initially, when the grind was finer .. the coffee poured in droplets for the duration. After the grind adjustment the pour was continuous .. but still took 45 secs .. it did however taste much better. Does the 25 sec standard pour time also apply to the Lusso and other levers .. or does it only apply to pumped machines?

Lacehim

It's probably a bit long Moon.  I would think around the 30sec mark as per a pump machine, BUT in my book it's not a hard and fast rule, I've enjoyed shots that have taken longer.  It does sound like you are not enjoying the long shots anyway, so ease off on the grind and bring them in a bit. Nice nakid shots too.

SniffCoffee

Hey Moon Maybe you should reduce the dose a bit, to say 16 g.  This might help with the flow. When I had a Lusso I struggled to put more than 16g in the basket.  Even now with my Achille and its 58mm basket I'm still only putting 17g in the basket each time. I wonder if the larger dose is choking the spring as the handle reaches its top position. So try lowering the dose without adjusting the grind and see what happens? Also I used to do the Fellini slightly differently: 1.  Hold the lever down until a drop appears, then release; then 2.  Push the lever down again just as it reaches the horizontal position, then let it go right to the top. See how you go! Cheers Sniff

Moon

on 1384931986:

It's probably a bit long Moon.  I would think around the 30sec mark as per a pump machine, BUT in my book it's not a hard and fast rule, I've enjoyed shots that have taken longer.

Adjusted the grind and did a 25 sec pour. I get the feeling I'm after somewhere in between 25 and 45 <-- 35  :lamp: This is my 25 sec result Attachment not found.

Lacehim

on 1384938546:

I've only had the machine 2 weeks .. so still a n00by .. feeling my way around ....... and loving it  :P

Your doing very well Moon!

Moon

Cheers Lacehim. It has been lots of fun .. and very happy with the Lusso and grinder. What a difference in the quality of coffees I'm now able to make compared to the Gaggia Baby and DeLonghi grinder I was using up until a couple of weeks ago. Your posts and Jacks (from Sorrentina) had a big influence in drawing me into getting the Lusso lever machine... along with the very good reviews over on Home Barista.