Breville's new dual boiler machine BES900

Lacehim · July 2011

Seriously guys did you expect anything else to happen? This is Breville you are talking about, they make toasters, and kettles. HN, GG, and the like are their bread and butter for sales. Servicing is going to be done by Breville's own service agents anyway so it doesn't actually matter where you buy it from. TC and CC have been there from day one hyping this thing as the ultimate coffee machine.. ::) Yes I would support Matt if you can, his service was great when I bought my Vario but it seems that specialty coffee retailers aren't Brevilles focus. Then again I think money wise (ie as an investment) you'll be better off with an quality HX machine for only a little bit more. Your Breville DB will be worthless in 2 years and will sold on ebay for peanuts, your money down the drain. Have a look on ebay, sunbeans struggling to get 2-300 dollars and only a few years old. The Lucy I bought was already 5 years old in great condition, bought for just above 50% of the original purchase price, I used it for a year and sold it for the same price I paid with the addition of a nakid handle. Try doing that with a Sunbeam or a Breville!!! ;D Shapeshifter, I really think you would love the lusso. No noise, easy to use, less maintenance (no backflushing) and all you have to do is train the other half to pull a lever rather than push a button. Steam to your hearts desire! It also looks so much more interesting.

RichardM · July 2011

I made this comment on 20th July elsewhere...

If I were any coffee equipment supplier, I'd be more concerned about Myer, DJ's etc selling Breville appliances for cheaper than you can (which is already happening semi-infrequently with 15% off discounts etc), and will happen more and more. This is why I've been confused about certain specialty coffee resellers selling Breville gear, no matter how good it is, as their competition just got WAY bigger. You can tell the customer how good it is, show them how it works, they can go away to "think about it", then buy it on their Myer Credit card on a % off sale just because they want the points. They can't do that with any of the Italians.

I personally stand by this - the whole "retail" sector is set up to make the above happen. The retailers association, unions etc, and big business makes it impossible to compete. Differentiate, and don't try and compete with those that are that much bigger than you. I admire Matt for wanting to sell something he believes in, but personally, I still maintain that differentiation is far more powerful as a business strategy (which seems to be where E61 and other specialty retailers succeed very well) than direct competition against "big fists".

shape_shifter · July 2011

I seriously have to laugh about the discount thing. On Brevilles US facebook page they have a link to a survey where when you answer it you get 20% off your next Breville purchase. I can bet there will be a lot of future BDB owners doing that survey. I don't know if there are any conditions but it sort of tells you something doesn't it! Sorry Lacehim not ignoring you, I keep suggesting it but the response I get is "I just want a button to do it for me" *sigh*

mcknightp · July 2011

Ask E61 at what point he communicated to Breville the numbers he potentially required. Every other "stakeholder" had done this some time ago. And yes, we will have stock for everyone in our marketing plan, but hey, you can't make it all in a week! Don't go blaming Breville for E61 not getting stock from the first shipment. OBTW is there something "wrong" with stock from subsequent shipments??? According to you AM, you wouldn't buy the first of anything as it's all flawed and untested, yet there appears to be quite a demand for this product's first production......

shape_shifter · July 2011

I chose early on to buy from E61 due to Brevilles 'friend' in the specialist field treating me like I was nobody at the launch, how nice is it to be so excited to get to meet people from Coffeesnobs and Breville and then when introducing yourself get greeted with 'oh' and being walked off on, very very nice. I did truly appreciate that even you Phil took the time to say in the hectic time it was "hello, that's who you are, glad you could come" and for Dave to go through everything with me and to answer my OH's questions. For me personally I was to be the 'poster child' of the home user for the BDB, I have already set up my blog ready to go from the day I received the BDB, photos, videos, other people have already expressed that they'd love to have a go, it was a no holes barred blog of good, bad and the ugly, machine faults (if any), user faults (sure to be lots

). I was going to include all sorts of things from how different grinders effect things, being that I have Spongs and then was to have the Smart Grinder as well, different beans, being a home roaster, even taking it places and doing coffee runs for a small group of cnc developers... I was soooo excited about the prospect of the BDB and it's all a huge let down for me, no matter who is at fault.

RichardM · July 2011

I just want to make some comments, and I guess this is the best place to put them. Having been interested and genuinely passionate about coffee for only around a year now, I've seen some wonderful senses of community, involvement, discussion, and passion. I have also seen some of the most horrendous business behaviour, and blatant marketing, discussion, and recommendation based on commercial interests. This is bad from both sides of the coin. Every business, whether it be a manufacture, retailer, or wholesaler, needs to make money, and it is entirely up to them to decide how to do that, within the law. Unfortunately, the whole Breville entering the "real" coffee market has forced a massive division between a lot of people. I have been personally been called an idiot, and been sworn at in PM on another forum for having an opinion on things which differ from others. I see people such as E61 who run completely different business models to people like Jetblack, as well as completely different to Talk Coffee etc. Not all of their business models are going to be favourable to manufacturers such as Breville (and, in this case, we will never know the full story from either side). I honestly believe that a big company with shareholders listed on the ASX cares very little as a company for anything other than large retailers on a similar level to them. They are there for one thing, and that is to make money. There does become that small issue when a person high up in that publicly listed company appears to be "doing favours" for particular vendors who are blatant friends in order to help them make their money. In the end, I think the unfortunately reality is that vendors, suppliers, manufacturers etc can never talk on the same level in a forum as general consumers (which was seen when one particular moderator on another forum was seen by many to have a conflict of interest). This is unfortunate, especially when we have such dedicated, passionate people like Matt wanting to share their love of coffee at the same time as turning a profit. When you have so many people who want to make money on one forum (not referring to this one), you are always going to end up with dedicated customers who want to support one vendor, as well as an "us and them" mentality of those who talk a lot, vs those who don't talk much. Having worked in some strand of IT for my whole working life, I've seen an industry essentially collapse. You cannot really go to a "computer store" these days and buy a laptop. What has happened is the big manufacturers have, as shareholder run companies, have cared for one thing, and that is raw numbers. Prices have gone down, and the ability to compete has become so cut throat, the barrier to entry in the market is high, and it's impossible to compete with the big generalist stores such as HN (the same ones that will be selling this coffee equipment). I believe we are seeing the same thing in a coffee industry, and I genuinely fear it. I fear that the humble coffee machine is becoming a commodity - a box that people just go get, rather than a piece of equipment people buy, expect to last, and will be happy to pay for service. We on forums are a minority unfortunately, and the way this will go in my opinion is not going to end well for specialty coffee retailers. But guess who it will end well for? Myer, Harvey Norman, Breville, Sunbeam - these big generalist companies that want to do one thing - move boxes and keep shareholders happy, just like it has for TV's, Computers, digital cameras. Do not think for one minute that these companies care about their consumers. They might hire the odd staff member who does who they hire for marketing purposes (some of whom will probably argue against these comments, because they genuinely do care about the project they've been a part of), but it's for one reason only, and that's the bottom line. I don't think seeing any manufacturer/vendor discussion in the public eye, whether favourable or unfavourable is a good thing for any consumer. It can only look bad from both sides for some people. I've gone off on a bit of a rant/tangent here, but I just had to put what was in my head on paper.

E61 · July 2011

on 1310125743:

Ask E61 at what point he communicated to Breville the numbers he potentially required. Every other "stakeholder" had done this some time ago.

Phil I was advised by my Breville Account Manager many weeks ago NOT to attempt to order stock until at least MID July. I was unaware that pricing had even been formalised despite having confirmed our intention to resell the BES900 a number of weeks ago. I was told that Breville's internal ordering system would not even recognise a BES900 order before mid July. I rang my account manager yesterday to follow up a Smart Grinder order. I left a couple of messages yesterday, including a message about ordering initial stocks of the BES900. Some hours later I received an email from my account manager advising that she had just received confirmation that

Brett H · July 2011

There is a great deal of negative sentiment surrounding this machine release, and invested members in relation to all of this (which is why I asked the question and was shocked by the answer). We are dealing with intelligent consumers here as is evidenced by the polarizing people to businesses rather than to products and savings. People here are seeking quality and service assurance. I can understand SS', Muscles' and others emotions, but will acknowlege that I don't understand how retail businesses operate and survive. Coffeedoode, I do hope that your machine runs more smoothly than the threads generated to discuss it. <Mod Correction by AM, on request by post owner> I only know one thing for certain: Shape_Shifter is a genuine honest and insightful person and has my total sympathy and shared disappointment/frustration.

hazchem · July 2011

*sigh* can we all just unbunch our panties a little? The machine hasn't gone on sale yet. For all we know it's powered by the blood of kittens and bunnies. or not. maybe they'll explode. or not. Agression, assumption, name calling and the like are just some of the reasons why I was avoiding coffee forums. Don't bring your baggage from another forum to this one please. thanks. Now, how about a reasonable discussion on what this machine is capable of amongst those who have used one, or are seeking advice in comparing it to more established models in the market? Thanks.

E61 · July 2011

on 1310148235:

*sigh* can we all just unbunch our panties a little? ... Agression, assumption, name calling and the like are just some of the reasons why I was avoiding coffee forums.

You are right Hazchem. :-[ I started this thread and I feel responsible for it to evolving into the sort of thread we might not be so proud of. I'm sorry that it has become hostile. My original intent was to let consumers know that I felt they were being disadvantaged and to encourage them to buy from an independent retailer. The options may not be ideal for everyone; however, the best result is to find the best price and the best service. Most of all to be satisfied with your investment. I crossed the line when I responded forcefully to some information Phil posted, which I felt didn

admin · July 2011

on 1310133264:

my name is john. i tried again and this time i give up for good. shapeshitter i am glad you dont sell machies

Hi guys - keep it seemly; coffeedoode - any more comments of this tone [personally vindictive] & will take more direct action A PS thanks for [above] Matt - was just about to split this off to 'Industry' but since Matt's post will leave as is - let's keep this thread on the relative merits of the machine - any distribution/trade issues on a new thread [in 'Industry'] please

beanflying · July 2011

Like A and others have said lets keep discussion focussed on the machine. On my head but I have reluctantly removed a few of the more angry/ 'personal' posts as they add nothing to the discussion.

Koffee_Kosmo · July 2011

on 1310131444:

i think this angry words should be happening somewhere else. i am happy i will get my dual boiler soon

GDay John I will be heading to Newcastle in about 2 months and possibly Sydney as a side visit If my trip goes ahead as planned Would it be forward of me to ask if you are willing to Have me over as your guest for a look at your new Breville machine Treat it as a review for the crema forum KK

askthecoffeeguy · July 2011

on 1310184795:

Like A and others have said lets keep discussion focussed on the machine. On my head but I have reluctantly removed a few of the more angry/ 'personal' posts as they add nothing to the discussion.

Good on you bf - it's all about the coffee - and anything else just detracts from the subject matter! And as fate would have it I may have to surrender my 'second kitchen' at home, which means moving the coffee gear into the 'first kitchen' - which may require a smaller footprint - which means I could be in the market for a new machine!

mcknightp · July 2011

on 1310172692:

FACT: What is known to the general population is that other than a brief viewing, the only people who have had them for a while are those that are company reps or direct employees.

FACT: Breville do not have Company Reps, only direct employees.

beanflying · July 2011

on 1310220521:

And as fate would have it I may have to surrender my 'second kitchen' at home, which means moving the coffee gear into the 'first kitchen' - which may require a smaller footprint - which means I could be in the market for a new machine!

Lucky for you you can always head into work for a cuppa if you are desperate. If you are still using the S27? On the footprint thing it is fairly wide at a touch over 400mm (my 1 grp 5L commercial is only 430 wide) It's benefit would be that iy isn't as deep or as high as the commercials. Or as heavy

askthecoffeeguy · July 2011

on 1310272351:

Lucky for you you can always head into work for a cuppa if you are desperate. If you are still using the S27? On the footprint thing it is fairly wide at a touch over 400mm (my 1 grp 5L commercial is only 430 wide) It's benefit would be that iy isn't as deep or as high as the commercials. Or as heavy

Yes, still using the S27 (well... I would be if I hadn't been sick as a dog for the last week with no sign of immediate improvement!) - It makes damn fine coffee even if it is dog ugly!

Dry_bean. · July 2011

Seems to me the Breville extended pre release advertising campaign (started mid May I think) has well and truly polarised coffee communities here and overseas. Using the internet via forums was an interesting (if somewhat hazardous) exercise in gaining cheap publicity, as the company has discovered trying to control forum members is a little like trying to herd cats, all very unpredictable, I suspect next time they have a product to pre release they may well go down the conventional media path and leave forum members to guess and second guess to their hearts content. As a company employee you cant get into slanging matches with potential customers and expect to come out on top, it simply ain't going to happen. What will be the outcome of all of this hype? I suspect the early adopters had made up their mind from day one and will be waiting at the retailers door on release day with plastic in hand. The coffee purists of course wouldn't be seen dead with a Breville appliance gracing their bench. What we need to keep in mind is it's only a coffee maker and not a life saving piece of medical equipment, the whole deal really is a bit of a storm in a tea cup. Regardless, I predict the likes of Hardly Normal will have some ripping deals on this appliance in their post Christmas sales this year ::)

admin · July 2011

Hi guys - in the interests of keeping this thread 'on topic', further discussion on industry [supply/distribution] issues has been seperated off onto a seperate thread on the Industry Board below... http://www.bestcafes.com.au/forum/index.php?topic=1781.0 A

mcknightp · July 2011

on 1310371887:

Hi guys - in the interests of keeping this thread 'on topic', further discussion on industry [supply/distribution] issues has been seperated off onto a seperate thread on the Industry Board below... http://www.bestcafes.com.au/forum/index.php?topic=1781.0 A

Admin, for balance, I think you should move post #202 as well as there is nothing in that thread other than a Breville bashing & nothing about the Dual Boiler. Regards, Phil

admin · July 2011

Hey Phil - thanks for the advice... will think about your suggestion, but fyi we operate on a 'light-touch' [anti-censorship] basis on this forum. A

Vinitasse · July 2011

on 1310378202:

Admin, for balance, I think you should move post #202 as well as there is nothing in that thread other than a Breville bashing & nothing about the Dual Boiler. Regards, Phil

Hi Phil, I don't think anyone started out this whole adventure with the intent of "Breville bashing". In fact, I think it would be far more accurate to say that the specialty coffee community eyed the launch of the BES900 with guarded enthusiasm... yet enthusiasm none the less. Finally, here was a machine that promised to be be pretty much all things to all people, at a good price and engineered in Australia by Australians. I am pretty sure that you could bank on the fact that we all wanted you to succeed. Perhaps you have noticed my use of the past tense in the last sentence. My enthusiasm has waned... and I am pretty sure that more than a few feel the same way. And why is that? Quite simply put... Breville let us down. We were all made to believe that the input and feedback we provided you and yours along the way would be rewarded by being included not only in the process but also in the buying. Now that the moment has finally arrived we collectively find that our community, which had been lauded by Brevillites up till this point, has now be bypassed in the pursuit of the almight dollar. Forgive us for being jaded, insulted and turned off... but it can clearly be seen by most that this was not the way to go. After all... you don't shit where you eat. I was keen but no longer... not the only one either I would assume. Good luck to you and yours

David Gubbin · July 2011

Sorry that I've been away and missed all of this. it's a damn shame we all headed down this path. Just to put a few more "facts" behind this discussion. 1st delivery is still slated for Aug 1st (fingers crossed) The first order quantity is approx 257 units (a 20 footer) The entire first delivery was spoken for, well before I had a discussion with the coffee specialist in question. They were offered stock from the second shipment ( it's not for us to share their response). Other interested coffee specialists have also missed out on the first shipment. Stock from the first shipment will go to a mix of Breville's traditional retailers and 3 or 4 coffee specialists. Enough facts. Now some opinions. The development cost for a project like this is massive (think of a number and times it by 100). And of the size that simply would not allow us to enen commence projects purely for coffee specialists. The maths just wouldn't add up. For us, right now, it has to be in HN, tGG's etc or we don't design it in the first place. In respect to the Breville brand, pre-release in blogs and specialty stockists, to me it's pretty clear that some will be interested, some will wet themselves, some wont give a toss and some will be roadblocks, but the way I see it, isn't that the same for everything in life. It's not a surprise to me that some (if not a lot) could never see a Breville espresso on their bench top no matter how well it performed (I think that of brands that i'm sure others love). But at the end of the day, we've now put a machine out there to forums that were eventually going to discuss it, and done our best to keep it as factual as possible. The floor was and is then yours to do with it as you like. Love it, hate it, range it, not range it, recommend it, bag it. Which is pretty obvious and expected as I said. Despite an opinion above, we'll attempt to keep it factual from here on in. PS, i've literally just returned from the snow, where I took one of the first production units of the 900. Everything is performing as expected, if not better, now we've further improved the punchiness of the steam. Regards, the Breville marketing guy.

Dry_bean. · July 2011

on 1310481796:

Sorry that I've been away and missed all of this. it's a damn shame we all headed down this path. Just to put a few more "facts" behind this discussion. 1st delivery is still slated for Aug 1st (fingers crossed) The first order quantity is approx 257 units (a 20 footer) The entire first delivery was spoken for, well before I had a discussion with the coffee specialist in question. They were offered stock from the second shipment ( it's not for us to share their response). Other interested coffee specialists have also missed out on the first shipment. Stock from the first shipment will go to a mix of Breville's traditional retailers and 3 or 4 coffee specialists. Enough facts. Now some opinions. The development cost for a project like this is massive (think of a number and times it by 100). And of the size that simply would not allow us to enen commence projects purely for coffee specialists. The maths just wouldn't add up. For us, right now, it has to be in HN, tGG's etc or we don't design it in the first place. In respect to the Breville brand, pre-release in blogs and specialty stockists, to me it's pretty clear that some will be interested, some will wet themselves, some wont give a toss and some will be roadblocks, but the way I see it, isn't that the same for everything in life. It's not a surprise to me that some (if not a lot) could never see a Breville espresso on their bench top no matter how well it performed (I think that of brands that i'm sure others love). But at the end of the day, we've now put a machine out there to forums that were eventually going to discuss it, and done our best to keep it as factual as possible. The floor was and is then yours to do with it as you like. Love it, hate it, range it, not range it, recommend it, bag it. Which is pretty obvious and expected as I said. Despite an opinion above, we'll attempt to keep it factual from here on in. PS, i've literally just returned from the snow, where I took one of the first production units of the 900. Everything is performing as expected, if not better, now we've further improved the punchiness of the steam. Regards, the Breville marketing guy.

Excellent reply David, Well done.

Koffee_Kosmo · July 2011

Despite an opinion above, we'll attempt to keep it factual from here on in.

This should have been done from the start David, so no brownie points for you By posting regular fact updates or corrections Belleville could have prevented the imaginary ones from surfacing Or as Dry Bean put it

A somewhat hazardous exercise in gaining cheap publicity, as the company has discovered trying to control forum members is a little like trying to herd cats

I must point out that I have not made one imaginary comment, if fact I have made only a handful of posts Its only a cursory interest for me in the new machine and prefer to wait for its release Now I am going to make a nice coffee without a care in the world KK

David Gubbin · July 2011

on 1310517929:

This should have been done from the start David, so no brownie points for you

I'm a marketer "KK". I never expect a brownie point or nor do I get them. If things go well Sales are heroes, if they bad marketing have let sales down. But hey, that's just par for the course. And that's not an opinion. That's a fact.

Koffee_Kosmo · July 2011

on 1310518836:

I'm a marketer "KK". I never expect a brownie point or nor do I get them. If things go well Sales are heroes, if they bad marketing have let sales down. But hey, that's just par for the course. And that's not an opinion. That's a fact.

Well none the less David, we at Crema forum appreciate that you have made time from your busy schedule to post the latest availability update Dont be a stranger We hope that your above post breaks the ice and its a start of more regular updates from you KK

askthecoffeeguy · July 2011

For the record I for one will hold off on formulating any opinion of the product until I've had the opportunity to bench test it and to put it through it's paces I'm more interested in what ends up in the cup than an other assessment of the product - my customers are always asking me for advice about domestic and prosumer equipment, and as stated above I will be holding off on any valuation until ive pulled a good few shots through one of these machines "keep it in the cup" ACg

beanflying · July 2011

on 1310530191:

For the record I for one will hold off on formulating any opinion of the product until I've had the opportunity to bench test it and to put it through it's paces ........led a good few shots through one of these machines

The pre production one available through Cafebiz was cranking out some fairly nice shots. Seemed to keep up well before the morning sessions got going at 20-30 cups in an hour I guess with 20+ users (none of us had read the manual). We were admittedly using a COE and one of the new M7D grinders which helped

For me out here in the sticks with the only place holding machines for 250km's being HN it would be nice to be able to suggest another good locally available machine when I get asked. Current decent choices apart from the sub $500 stuff are fairly much the 6910 or the Auto (yuck) machines on offer.

shape_shifter · July 2011

Despite all of the crap around the BDB my OH sat down with me today and took all the emotion out of what has happened and he still thinks that it ticks all of the boxes. So yes we will still be buying one, it's just a matter of who from and when, I'm trying very hard to be very patient.

frame

Howdy, Stranger!

Howdy, Stranger!

Categories

In this Discussion

Breville's new dual boiler machine BES900

Comments

foot

Policies

Social

frame

Howdy, Stranger!

Howdy, Stranger!

Quick Links

Categories

In this Discussion

Breville's new dual boiler machine BES900

Comments

foot

Policies

Social