Breville's new dual boiler machine BES900

Cuppacoffee · August 2011

I'm well aware of the definition Muscles, but what I struggle with (and not just in the case of coffee related reviews) is the fact that if you scratch hard enough, bias can be uncovered or at least suspected, in any 'independent review'. For example, a cynic's viewpoint might be: Someone in Canada blogs their observations with no attachment to the machine - they only did it to big note themselves and increase their website hit rate. A reseller in Sydney says 'hey, I think this machine is a cracker' - he only says it for profit. Someone in Brissie offers to demo a machine - he's only doing it because he's a mate of the reseller. I'm not a cynic. Muscles, I suggest that while some reviews, independent or otherwise, may have some meaningful and interesting information, none of them will match your own, independent review of whatever you decide upon. As human beings we find it difficult to argue with our own data. I am sure you will enjoy whichever machine you choose.

Brett H · August 2011

I am really looking forward to having a play and promise to take lots of photos. I was San not to take up the offer of a session with the Gee's early in it's big push into the Aussie market place. When I finally had a play it was "off the radar." I can't offer an opinion on whether something is good, bad or indifferent because what I value may have little consequence to another. Even if something is electrically unsound straight off the production line who am I to tell someone not to buy it based on my own selfish desires to live. There are many mother inlaws out there who are possibly a large untapped market for just such a purchase/gift. So I'll take photos, enjoy the brews and if it turns out to be a big steaming pile of poo I'll probably nod, smile and let the cranky toddler push all the buttons before being summarily booted out. WINNING! I may just as likely love it and buy one for Mimmie's Nanna ;D

derrilex · August 2011

I'd love to have a look AM but work is OTT at the moment. Look forward to the feedback.

Brett H · August 2011

on 1313053763:

Brett H has some shots... ;D 1: Smart grinder was the order of the evening 2: We were shown one run and left to our devices 3: First off remove the plastic insert in the group. Same as the Sunbeam but why ? 4: Menu was easy to navigate 5: Set at 93 but ... Gut feel was that it needed a small flush. This is just tweaking and is the same for all systems as to defining the temp profile / performance. 6: Used it with a manual pre infusion (nice option) and manual run etc Shots were OK and good with milk. We were not there to target the beans... 7: Steam was interesting and as part of the Demo, a full jug was done and some good texturing all be it slower than on a more commercial type. 8: Steam is like that of the Sunbeam in that I could hold my hand within 50mm and leave it there on full steam. 9: Reasonable quite and some nice touches as to tool storage / top loading for water and the swivel foot :D 10: Temp adjustment quick to access 11: People will need to know how to factory reset as two many options; will see user generated issues when people start to play. 12: Volumetric OR Manual and clean and easy to select. 13: Interesting foot print but would suit those with some bench space... Would not look out of place. 14: PF is solid with commercial type lugs. But tried to fit two other different groups with same lug layout and the overall shape/size clashes with the collar shape (somewhat akin to the Sunbeam in looks). 14A: One Observation was that the group was easy to lock in but with little effort, one was able to move well past 6:00. Not sure what impact this will have on the seal and or collar, if abused. NOTE: As said a dozen times - reliability will be the issue and if it proves to be reliable (2 year warranty is a strong indicator) it will = A market killer for a targeted market. For those moving from a Sunbeam there will be less advantages that if moving from many other thermoblock or small single boiler systems ie. the silvia etc. While a separate boiler for steam, it is not of the same performance of any other dual boiler or other larger single boiler. It it fit for purpose ie. A dinner party etc. Don't think you can cater for a function if Milk based drinks are the order of the day. A true HX or better would still be the preferred option. However, for the $ the BES 900 has to be considered, if looking to upgrade and if you can get a package; them at $1.6K etc with the grinder included OR when offered by the big chains. Then exceptional value for $. If your into a more robust and traditional system, then a solid HX or second hand dual boiler will be the option.

Wow! Really tough light to work in! 50mm f1.4 lens and still didn't cope well. SB900 flash was over-kill and I'll be honest I was there for the coffee not to calibrate the light temp, balance flash, compose etc. Thank you so much AM for a terrific session and a great fun play with the market's newest toy. Agree wholeheartedly with everything you've said in your post AM... not surprising becasue it's as we discussed/discovered! Wish my friend who wants to go Nextcrappo was there to see it! He would have been easily converted and saved from the Dark (stale) Side...I think. Congratulations to Breville the Aussie design company who have made this product a reality.

Brett H · August 2011

A couple more...

DoubleRistretto · August 2011

cool; thanks for the early report guys! dR

doublerizzy · August 2011

Hello! New to crema and I received my breville just a couple of days ago. So far, I am very happy! This is a second machine destined for the weekender... I am looking forward to reading more as more people get their machine. dr

doublerizzy · August 2011

Thank you Anger, I didn't see the cooling flush you mentioned and I actually needed to raise the brew temperature to 94 deg for my coffee roasted to the first snaps of second crack. The steam is not as strong as the more expensive dual boiler or heat exchange machines- as you said, but I agree it is easy to get a good microfoam. I found it fine. Early days but so far so good and nothing has broken. Lastly, sorry- no ocean I am afraid

dr

Cuppacoffee · August 2011

on 1313053763:

Don't think you can cater for a function if Milk based drinks are the order of the day. A true HX or better would still be the preferred option.

While I agree that the steam pressure is not as high as a HX, so long as there is water in the reservoir, the availability of steam is continuous, and the results are excellent. Most HX machines will run out of puff after 90 seconds or so, and if allowed to do so, will also effect a HX machine's brew temperature unless allowed to recover. If you are familiar with either the Breville or a traditional HX, you can organise yourself to make numerous and consecutive coffees. So, who's rushing off to Domayne at Kotara? I hear they have the DB for $1299 without the need to haggle. ;D

admin · August 2011

Hi guys - a post [& several subsequent ones] were moved to the Breville Marketing thread in 'Industry' - - see: http://www.bestcafes.com.au/forum/index.php?topic=1781.25#bot

Phil · August 2011

Hi from Mitchelton on Brisbane's north side - SO sorry to have missed yesterday's demo. Where I can go to see one of these machines? Our Sunbeam clapped out a couple of weeks ago (steam has died) and as we've had it repaired half a dozen times, we figure it's time to upgrade. Do you think the Breville is worth the extra $$$? Sounds disappointing that the steam pressure isn't a bit more substantial? Phil

on 1313053763:

Brett H has some shots... ;D 1: Smart grinder was the order of the evening 2: We were shown one run and left to our devices 3: First off remove the plastic insert in the group. Same as the Sunbeam but why ? 4: Menu was easy to navigate 5: Set at 93 but ... Gut feel was that it needed a small flush. This is just tweaking and is the same for all systems as to defining the temp profile / performance. 6: Used it with a manual pre infusion (nice option) and manual run etc Shots were OK and good with milk. We were not there to target the beans... 7: Steam was interesting and as part of the Demo, a full jug was done and some good texturing all be it slower than on a more commercial type. 8: Steam is like that of the Sunbeam in that I could hold my hand within 50mm and leave it there on full steam. 9: Reasonable quite and some nice touches as to tool storage / top loading for water and the swivel foot :D 10: Temp adjustment quick to access 11: People will need to know how to factory reset as two many options; will see user generated issues when people start to play. 12: Volumetric OR Manual and clean and easy to select. 13: Interesting foot print but would suit those with some bench space... Would not look out of place. 14: PF is solid with commercial type lugs. But tried to fit two other different groups with same lug layout and the overall shape/size clashes with the collar shape (somewhat akin to the Sunbeam in looks). 14A: One Observation was that the group was easy to lock in but with little effort, one was able to move well past 6:00. Not sure what impact this will have on the seal and or collar, if abused. NOTE: As said a dozen times - reliability will be the issue and if it proves to be reliable (2 year warranty is a strong indicator) it will = A market killer for a targeted market. For those moving from a Sunbeam there will be less advantages that if moving from many other thermoblock or small single boiler systems ie. the silvia etc. While a separate boiler for steam, it is not of the same performance of any other dual boiler or other larger single boiler. It it fit for purpose ie. A dinner party etc. Don't think you can cater for a function if Milk based drinks are the order of the day. A true HX or better would still be the preferred option. However, for the $ the BES 900 has to be considered, if looking to upgrade and if you can get a package; them at $1.6K etc with the grinder included OR when offered by the big chains. Then exceptional value for $. If your into a more robust and traditional system, then a solid HX or second hand dual boiler will be the option.

Muscles · August 2011

I have a couple of questions for those who have used the BDB:

[li]How loud is the BDB compared to the EM6910?[/li] [li]Steaming performance when directly compared to the EM6910?[/li] [li]How would this machine pair with a Super Jolly?[/li]

Rider · August 2011

on 1313129600:

Our Sunbeam clapped out a couple of weeks ago (steam has died) and as we've had it repaired half a dozen times, we figure it's time to upgrade. Do you think the Breville is worth the extra $$$? Phil

Personally opinion only, but from what I have read, no. Double your bucks for something similar is what I see from this. Others will tell you different but through the whole of this hype the Sunbeam has not figured. The Breville has been compared to HX machines. Now the steam dissimilarities are starting to appear as the Breville is here in the flesh. We had a Sunbeam and it was a great machine no doubt. Is the Breville THAT much better? Your call...

Cuppacoffee · August 2011

on 1313153841:

Personally opinion only, but from what I have read, no. Double your bucks for something similar is what I see from this. Others will tell you different but through the whole of this hype the Sunbeam has not figured. The Breville has been compared to HX machines. Now the steam dissimilarities are starting to appear as the Breville is here in the flesh. We had a Sunbeam and it was a great machine no doubt. Is the Breville THAT much better? Your call...

Dear me. My last post seems to have disappeared without explanation. It's a pity that the above quote isn't based on any real knowledge of the Breville.

beanflying · August 2011

on 1313127060:

Hi guys - a post [& several subsequent ones] were moved to the Breville Marketing thread in 'Industry' - - see: http://www.bestcafes.com.au/forum/index.php?topic=1781.25#bot

on 1313193488:

Dear me. My last post seems to have disappeared without explanation. It's a pity that the above quote isn't based on any real knowledge of the Breville.

Nope it was moved away from the machine discussion thread. We are endeavouring to keep this thread on track about discussing the machine and posts regarding some companies marketing decisions and product holdings and ones taking pot shots at other businesses were removed by A. On the steam issue I am keen to see one of the production versions in the flesh and see how much improved it was over the preproduction models. PP models while weak had very dry good quality steam so the only pain was it was a bit slower than ideal. Value for money is quite another mater and if these machine prove their reliability over time then they represent excellent value for money, this is a question currently with no answer.

Cuppacoffee · August 2011

Thanks for the explanation BF - I do appreciate it. EDIT: Just had a look at the other thread, and my post of this morning isn't there. I still guess it was deleted. Regarding the steam, for everyone's information, Breville increased the performance from the pre-production models by simply increasing the range or scope that the valve could move. The greater angle allows more steam to be available. (Hope that makes sense). Although you might expect the machine to produce a greater volume of steam, one of the main reasons it doesn't is that the holes in the tip are tiny in comparison to many other machines. The result is that this provides more control, and with the majority of likely purchaser's to be inexperienced, that's probably a plus.

Brett H · August 2011

The steam on the model we played with on Thursday night was very wet in comparison to my HX. It a also took longer than I expected to steam the quantity of milk for two piccolos. The steam also was nowhere near as hot as my HX ... wait for it .... BUT, the milk textured by Dan on the Breville was very good. Amateurs like me take time to adjust to frothing on a new machine so it would be hardly fair to put mine or AM's efforts with steam under the microscope (us being the problem as opposed to the machine). An Oscar will produce far more steam for less money; However, the Breville offers far more than just a steam machine for the right buyer. Seriously, go have a play when you have the chance and you won't die wondering. Reading on forums will only take you so far in your research. I am so glad i had the opportunity because i found the machine very, very interesting.

admin · August 2011

on 1313063385:

A couple more...

good to get a couple more pics Brett [altho' suggest you might consider using a tripod next time

]; you're ahead of me - still haven't got to actually one in real life!! A

Brett H · August 2011

on 1313291225:

good to get a couple more pics Brett [altho' suggest you might consider using a tripod next time ]; you're ahead of me - still haven't got to actually one in real life!! A

Hi A, you're not wrong there. Here are a couple more fuzzies... the light was really very low and but the pics may speak volumes in relation to questions about both machines that people think too mundane to ask. I'd love to go back at some stage with better light and with my light box and tripod etc because the photos are most disappointing in regards to exposure, noise and focal length.

Muscles · August 2011

Thanks Anger for answering my Q's and thanks Brett for the photos, I was actually about to ask if anyone got a look at the shower screen...

RichardM · August 2011

on 1313301721:

the photos are most disappointing in regards to exposure, noise and focal length.

Indeed they are. It's totally unacceptable!

Brett H · August 2011

on 1313316417:

Indeed they are. It's totally unacceptable!

I see no other option but to upgrade :D Now, which of our sponsors sells a Nikon D400? Oops OT... and the photos still don't look any better...

Or Richard, do ou mean that the shower screen and group seal are totally unacceptable??? What I found was that we were locking in the portafilter at 4 o'clock and if we hadn't been being respectful and careful had the feeling we could lock that sucker all the way around. Monkeys who buy this machine take note: be gentle!!! If you are used to a commercial group with a heavy dirty ol' rubber seal, excercise some care!!!

Muscles · August 2011

on 1313323891:

Monkeys who buy this machine take note: be gentle!!!

Note to self... if I buy this I should change my handle from Muscles to Monkey :D

shape_shifter · August 2011

Mmm more and more interesting comments from the CS thread. There is no way to descale the machine yourself!!! You have to take it to a service centre. So first we find out that retailers are discounting from RRP before they even have it and now you can't perform functions that you need to to keep your machine in top condition.

Brett H · August 2011

on 1313385122:

Mmm more and more interesting comments from the CS thread. There is no way to descale the machine yourself!!! You have to take it to a service centre. So first we find out that retailers are discounting from RRP before they even have it and now you can't perform functions that you need to to keep your machine in top condition.

They can't be serious SS. Surely Breville are just protecting themselves from warranty claims when unknowings read a forum post and decide to run rice through their boiler to descaled it or something similarly silly. I'm surprised that there are still CS threads unlocked long enough for anyone to post something as controversial as that anyway. And let's face it, if some spotty boy can offer me a SmartGrinder for a stupidly huge discount just because I want to play with their dusty display model don't be surprised when these new 900's are being sold at huge discounts just to get you on their database. It has a fancy term (netting, webbing ?). I am ashamed to admit that I have purchased items at below wholesale (union shopper rep couldn't believe the price) benefiting from this tactic. I'm sure that if we ran a competition to see who can get a 900 the cheapest, you'd better that no haggle price from Domayne in no time... but what would be the point. Have you played with the Lelit/vario yet?

littleroundman · August 2011

on 1313389412:

They can't be serious SS.

I'm not sure anyone who has been on the wrong end of Sunbeam 6910 experience/s would necessarily agree with you. The average consumer has no idea what can happen when and if things do go wrong with a product, warranty and no warranty.

Springbok · August 2011

Well I saw it on Saturday at the Coffeeguy in Brisbane. Nice looking machine - the grinder is amazing - worth every penny I'd say - I made myself a Long black under guidance of one of the staff - must say Dan is very generous - he didnt charge me for the coffee and he didnt try and badger me into buying it. Not that Im a mouse but Im a wee bit scared of my Finance minister atm - so perhaps with Xmas coming along I may get it in my stocking.

shape_shifter · August 2011

Brett, nope haven't got around to anything yet, stupid flu the last couple of weeks. I can understand Brevilles KISS attitude and taking away user caused problems, I think it just means that for people that do know what they are doing it's one machine that they won't consider even though it might have the extras that the more expensive machines don't. Who wants to pay someone else to do something that you can do, probably better than they can anyway. Sure if we can pick one up later on for under $1k then we might have a go if I haven't decided on something else but it's now not something I'm hanging out to buy like I was before.

RichardM · August 2011

on 1313402819:

Brett, nope haven't got around to anything yet, stupid flu the last couple of weeks. I can understand Brevilles KISS attitude and taking away user caused problems, I think it just means that for people that do know what they are doing it's one machine that they won't consider even though it might have the extras that the more expensive machines don't. Who wants to pay someone else to do something that you can do, probably better than they can anyway. Sure if we can pick one up later on for under $1k then we might have a go if I haven't decided on something else but it's now not something I'm hanging out to buy like I was before.

Just decide already! The suspense is killing me. Just buy a second hand HX machine and retrofit a rotary pump to it. Quiet, and will do everything you want at a reasonable price.

shape_shifter · August 2011

LMAO Richard, I am actually keeping an eye on ebay and the CS selling page ;D There are not many that have a low risk burn situation though LOL was thinking that maybe if I found a cheap enough HX that was 'normal' type then I'll have to fit it out with a covering over the group head of some sort

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