Ponte Vecchio Lusso - advice please?

Moon · November 2013

Thought Christmas had come early.. Did the 17g and loaded it up. Timed the pour .. 25 secs - perfect. Taste test .. oh WOW .. hit the Jackpot! Let's go again.. just in case I'm dreaming .. too quick - not as good. :'( Tried *twice since .. lost it. What a tease .. at least I know what I'm aiming for.. ::) * Might as well explain wot wen wong 1. Poured in 20 secs instead of 25 and only poured 15 ml instead of 20ml. Hmm? .. ok I'll top it up with the late drips from the replacement cup to get it back up to 20ml Yuk .. bad move ---> it's a sinker .. try again. 2. Adjust grind slightly finer - still using 17g. Because grinds were finer .. after the final polish .. the dose was a little lower in the basket. Let's see how it goes? The pour was way too fast .. the lever rose quickly .. quick --> Fellini move. Measured shot volume .. damn, 30ml .. tasted .. too strong. Poured it into a larger 6oz cup .. add 1/2 tsp sugar to compensate .. steamed up some more milk. Bit ordinary .. i've been spoiled .. 'ordinary' just doesn't cut it anymore. The good news: With the lower dose in the basket (17g instead of 18g).. the first drips appear after holding the lever down for 10 secs (pre-infusion) .. meaning I don't have to use the Fellini to get the pour started like I had been doing. I needed this part of the process to finally come onboard. I'm all caffeined out .. so the climb back up to the summit of Mt Coffee is on hold for the mo.. :head: The journey continues...

Moon · November 2013

The next installment Last pours were too fast .. so I tweaked the grinder a little finer. 18g was too much to pack in & 17g is not quite enough .. hmm? wonder if my digital scales can display 17.5g? Anyway .. lever down .. 6 secs until a drop .. and let go .. bang on 25 secs. Nice pour and a bit more crema. Yeah Baby! .. back standing at the summit of Mt Coffee .. it was a ripper. Life is good :thumb:

Koffee_Kosmo · November 2013

Not sure if this helps On the Strega I pre infuse 6 to 8 seconds And I tamp to its maximum at just before the puck couches the water screen - I don't weigh KK

Moon · November 2013

on 1385019555:

Not sure if this helps On the Strega I pre infuse 6 to 8 seconds And I tamp to its maximum at just before the puck couches the water screen - I don't weigh KK

I did get the impression from reading around the threads that a shorter pre-infusion was the way to go.. and that the pour should start the moment the grinds are wet. Although I am weighing at the moment .. I haven't given the timed doser on the Compak Touch much of a go yet. I'm grinding into a container to shake up the clumping... then using a teaspoon to fill the basket. It would be much easier to grind straight into the PF. I'll have to check later whether the clumping makes much of a difference? My basket is filled to the max, that only just allows the PF to be locked into the group head. Still early days .. weeks, months down the track .. I'll probably be going about it quite differently - once getting the knack of it?

Koffee_Kosmo · November 2013

on 1385021839:

I did get the impression from reading around the threads that a shorter pre-infusion was the way to go.. and that the pour should start the moment the grinds are wet. Although I am weighing at the moment .. I haven't given the timed doser on the Compak Touch much of a go yet. I'm grinding into a container to shake up the clumping... then using a teaspoon to fill the basket. It would be much easier to grind straight into the PF. I'll have to check later whether the clumping makes much of a difference? My basket is filled to the max, that only just allows the PF to be locked into the group head. Still early days .. weeks, months down the track .. I'll probably be going about it quite differently - once getting the knack of it?

Try this After tamping - lock in your PF Then unlock it and see if you have any marks from the screen on the puck If so you are over dosing and possibly breaking the surface of the puck allowing the water to make a channel I will await your reply KK

Moon · November 2013

Hi KK Only noticed your post at 9.15pm Just tested it. With my usual tamp/polish .. the shower screen doesn't make an impression i added a bit more and the PF didn't want to lock in. I put my hand under the PF head and lifted slightly.. and it turned. The shower screen did make an imprint in this instance. From this .. it appears that the PF will not twist and lock in naturally (without force) .. if the level of grinds will come into contact with the shower screen.

Koffee_Kosmo · November 2013

I often recommend that technique as the best option for any machine Note down the tamp depth to screen clearance for future use If you want a smaller or larger dose get an appropriate basket - however the tamp depth always remains the same no matter the basket size or grind type KK

Moon · November 2013

on 1385031060:

Note down the tamp depth to screen clearance for future use KK

Thanks for that tip .. handy to know. As result of this test - the tamp depth needs to be more than 4mm to clear the shower screen. It was previously thought that for the PV Lusso .. a 3mm tamp depth was ideal. * Goes to prove .. every mm counts in this business 8) Cheers KK

Koffee_Kosmo · November 2013

on 1385032432:

Thanks for that tip .. handy to know. As result of this test - the tamp depth needs to be more than 4mm to clear the shower screen. It was previously thought that for the PV Lusso .. a 3mm tamp depth was ideal. * Goes to prove .. every mm counts in this business 8) Cheers KK

Glad to be of service

Moon · November 2013

Crikey .. first today too quick @ 15 secs .. adjusted grind finer, 2nd pour too slow @ 40 secs. :head: Backed the grind off a tad .. going for 3rd time lucky? --> later The machine made that strange noise again when i turned it on. It starts when the element starts heating up. Boiler was 3/4 full. Turned it off .. took off boiler cap .. a little pressure was released .. put cap back on and turned back on.. and it heated up quietly. Peace has been restored. Once I'm finished and turn the machine off .. I usually leave the steam wand knob slightly open to drain off the pressure inside the boiler during its cooling down phase. This time I forgot to do it .. and the boiler was not happy. This baby decides to throws a tantrum .. requiring immediate attention to rectify my oversight. Once the remaining pressure is released .. it goes about its business without further drama .... well? Hmm? Wonder if the 2 pretty ordinary coffees that followed were a reminder to pay more attention next time? .. you know, treat me right .. and I'll do the right thing by you? Crikey .. I feel like I'm married to this thing .. only what happened to the blissful honeymoon period .. or is this it? :tearhair:

Moon · November 2013

Ok .. it's Time - (thanks Gough) The bookies are now taking bets $1.75 - too fast $2 25 - *25 secs - perfect. $1.50 - too slow (the favorite) Grind has been backed off. * + or - 5 secs Stay tuned .. Back shortly with the result?

And the WINNER IS .. the favorite - too slow @ 40 secs Rating - 6.5/10 (drinkable)

Moon · November 2013

Ok .. here we go again Backing the grind off a bit more. Ahh yes .. back right on the money ---> 25 secs Rating- 9/10 (delicious) - Yeah Baby! :thumb: ^ Leaving some headroom for that cup that blows me away Last 2 coffees have been using mycuppa's espresso blend. Milk I use is Woollies Macro Organic Full-cream. Very nice. $2.30 ltr .. and worth it.

Moon · November 2013

Ahh .. consistency Last 3 coffees have been in the range. 1. 25 secs - Rating 9/10 2. 25 secs - 9/10 (flavour slightly better, microfoam a little *bubbly) 3. 30 secs - 9.3/10 (richer flavour & good micro foam) 18g does put the dose in contact with the screen, as the polished grinds are more like 3mm from the top of the basket when inserted into the group head. The grinds get tamped to 4mm when locking the PF into the group. If the PF does not want to turn initially .. some grinds need to be removed.. the PF tapped on the bench as well as tapped on the side with a SS tamper to level off the grinds .. and re-polished. * This was because I didn't wait for the boiler to fully reach 1.2 bar and power off before steaming the milk. Getting there :P

Update After finishing writing ^ I was all inspired and felt the urge. This time I thought the dose may have been a little high .. and it did resist the first time I tried to lock it into the group. It did fit when trying a 2nd time. Pour - 35 secs - Rating 9.5/10 Wow .. for the first time I could taste the chocolatey flavour.. that is supposed to appear in a longer pour according to what I have read. This is definitely the best cup of coffee so far. Appears I've finally cracked it for the right grind setting .. for these beans (mycuppa espresso blend) :thumb:

As for the PF sneeze .. due to no solenoid pressure release valve in these machines, I have not found it a problem. All you have to remember is not to take out the PF straight after the pour. You can hear the slight vacuum release when you take it out after waiting a few minutes.

Moon · November 2013

Next attempt Wasn't sure whether I had flushed the group after the last use .. so I did it. The dose was high and wouldn't turn on first attempt .. when looking at the dose .. it had been butchered. The upper layer of grounds had stuck to the screen .. yep .. because it was still wet from the flushing. Attempts to recoup the grinds and get a polished surface failed .. only I wasn't going to waste it and continued on knowing that my results wouldn't be accurate this time. 25 sec pour - Rating 9/10 .. yep, definitely worth keeping. Next attempt Tried 17g instead of 18g to lower the dose under the screen. 30 sec pour - Rating 9.2 (not as nice as the 35 sec pour earlier that had the chocolatey flavour) I'm thinking 35 secs is the sweet spot for my taste .. but will need to get a few more at that pour time to confirm. This is what a 9.2/10 looks like. I knew this would rate in the 9s.

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Moon · November 2013

2 coffees so far today and no doubt heading out for my 3rd after being all inspired by this post Here's how it's going so far .. 1. 50 sec pour - no idea why it took so long, and being the first for the day .. difficult to rate. Being all dopey n all .. and hanging out real bad .. anything other than *instant would probably get the thumbs up? 2. Back on track.. exactly the same process (or perhaps not?) 30 sec pour - Rating 9.3 .. delicious, smooth, full bodied. Taste buds not totally awake to appreciate any chocolate flavours in the cup .. even if they were there? 2nd best coffee I've made so far. This is the 2nd 30 sec pour that has been exceptional. After writing that ^ how can you not be inspired to go out right now and experience it again .. :coffee2: The downside with using a smaller cup size .. is that it goes down too quickly <-- probably why I don't bother drinking espresso shots .. here we go - finished. Gee .. that was nice while it lasted .. all 1 second of it. Definitely a case for professing 'quality' over 'quantity' .. which is what I usually do .. only not in this instance. * Is this even allowed to be mentioned here? I could have used spoiler tags to hide it .. if the forum had them available?

Koffee_Kosmo · November 2013

Old Chinese or is that a Golf term Be One With xyz You are One with your machine Moony :thumb: Keep up the good coffee for pleasure and happiness KK

Moon · November 2013

Cheers KK Oh Man .. how good is this? Just pulled another 30 sec pour .. another 9.4/10 .. golly, does it really need to be any better? Could I be any happier than with the Ponte Vecchio Lusso and Compak grinder? Nup .. I'm pretty comfortable here in Coffee Heaven. Of course, you have to use quality beans .. and Jeff from mycuppa certainly provides that. I've used up the 500g of Barista, and nearing the end of the Espresso .. with 500g of Guatemala to go. I'll have to get some more of the Barista, as it was used up during the experimental phase, so the quality of the bean didn't really get a fair hearing. First drips at pre-infusion are between 10-15 secs .. so I figure dose and tamp are pretty close to the mark. * It has taken almost 3 weeks after getting the machine and grinder to get it sorted.. which is around what I thought it would probably take - with the assistance from you kind folk around here. :thumb: Good times ahead..

Moon · November 2013

just made another ripper, 30 sec pour rating in the 9s .. so I reckon I've got these beans licked. Here's the procedure in detail that works for me on the Ponte Vechio Lusso. I was a complete PV Lusso lever noob 3 weeks ago .. so I don't claim to be an expert by any means .. anyway :rofl: 1. Weigh 17g of beans 2. Grind into a container (smell the aroma) and give it a shake to break up the clumps (sniff again) 3. Make sure the PF is dry ..I use a teaspoon to scoop 2 tsp grinds into basket.PF - 1/2 -2/3 full .. tap PF 3 x on (I use a wooden & ceramic Teapot stand) or bench .. then use a metal tamper to tap 3 x on side of PF head to help distribute grinds .. use the plastic tamper to polish only at this point - (no tamp pressure) then use tsp to fill basket as much as possible without spilling (it will) .. tap 3 x on 'bench' 3 x on side .. tap base of container to add remaining grinds. 4. Use forefinger across the top of grinds to even them out using the 'East-West' motion to distribute grinds into the crevices at the sides of the basket .. you will need to do the East-West a few times .. then finish off by .. yep, you guessed it ---> tap 3 x on bench and side. The grinds should end up flush with the top of the PF basket. Place plastic tamper on top with your thumb and forefinger at 12 o'clock & 6 o'clock with other fingers gripping underneath to steady the PF head. Once steadied, and it's important to keep the tamper level as you twist it to polish. I tamp very lightly as I twist so that the tamper depth drops slightly into the basket to get the 3mm clearance from the top of the basket.. otherwise the PF won't fit into the group head - because the dose is too high in the basket. 5. Lock into group head with handle at 6 o'clock. 6. Make sure there is no false pressure by opening the steam wand to let some pressure out. If false pressure is present .. the boiler pressure meter will drop right back, in which case you will need to wait until it gets back to *1.1-1.2 bar before pulling your shot. If it only drops a little .. it will only take around 25 secs to recover.. otherwise it can take over a minuite. I haven't figured out why the difference yet? 7. Pull lever down for pre-infusion. Hold down for 10-15 secs until a drop lands in your cup .. then release the lever slowly until it gets resistance. Let it go .. 3 secs later you can start timing your pour. Finishes when lever stops its upright movement. Ideally it should take 25-30 secs for the pour 8. Steam your milk if you need to. Sometimes the pressure will drop significantly when you turn the steam wand on soon after pulling the shot .. and at other times it only drops a bit. Either way .. wait for the pressure to reach its max resting pressure when the power and light turns off .. otherwise if pressure is lower, it will blow large bubbles in the milk and you won't get smooth micro foam. * Factory setting for boiler pressure on mine was 1.35 bar, which is considered too high here in Oz. I adjusted it down to 1.1 bar when I received it .. however it heats up to 1.2 bar and then rests between the 1.1 and 1.2 bar - which seems fine.

littleroundman · November 2013

on 1385290089:

6. Make sure there is no false pressure by opening the steam wand to let some pressure out. If false pressure is present .. the boiler pressure meter will drop right back, in which case you will need to wait until it gets back to *1.1-1.2 bar before pulling your shot. If it only drops a little .. it will only take around 15 secs to recover.. otherwise it can take 30-40 secs. I haven't figured out why the difference yet?

You can eliminate this step completely by bleeding off ALL the false pressure when you turn the machine on for the first time each day. Turn on the machine and let it come up to pressure on the gauge (when it turns off automatically) Then open the steam valve and allow ALL the air to bleed off It's easy to tell when the air is all gone. Steam is visible at the wand and the gauge will stop dropping. Allow the boiler to reheat fully and switch off. Bob's your uncle. No more bleeding off needed until you switch off. Simply repeat the cycle next time you switch on.

Moon · November 2013

True little I leave my machine on for the first couple of coffees in the morning and then switch it off. I turn it back on for a coffee in the afternoon and then again in the evening, so because I choose not to leave it on all day .. I need to bleed off the false pressure each time - except for the 2nd one in the morning, because the machine is left on for that .. as it is made usually within an hour of the first. The reasons why I switch my machine off, rather than leaving it on all day - convenience. 1. Power conservation. 2. Cost - it is a 1000W boiler powering on & off all day .. it must add up over the long term --> Waste $ 2. To avoid the build up of constant excessive heat inside the unit - even though I have added insulation. 3. Prolong the life of electrical components.

Moon · November 2013

After my Cat did its usual jump up on my bed to wake me up to be fed thing, I leapt out of bed (well .. crawled out actually) to turn on the Coffee machine before obliging my little sweetheart, only to realize I had to go to St V for a blood test. After checking the form .. oh no .. fasting wtf :'( cruel but fair .. anyway..

After returning as quickly as I could without breaking the speed limit .. I went about lifes highest priority (on any other day) .. making my first coffee .. and then a 2nd .. and a 3rd to make up for lost time :D 1. [1st coffee] lowered the dose slightly by putting in 1 bean at a time when getting close to 17g, and when it ticks over .. take out 3 beans .. precision stuff eh? the other difference this time was not to actually apply slight pressure to the final polish to get the 3mm clearance, as I was using 3 less beans to reduce the volume. Yep .. you heard it right. lol. Pour - 25 secs and the coffee came out a bit too strong for my taste Rating - 8.5/10 (appreciated the extra kick .. being the first for the day .. and taste buds not being reliable) 2. [2nd coffee] Pour - 20 secs .. used the 'mycuppa' Guatemala beans this time. Still came out too strong Rating - 8.2/10 Crikey .. I am off the boil :'( Have the beans suddenly 'matured' overnight .. and now produce an extra kick? 3.[3rd] Ok .. back to the Espresso bean .. so that I can compare to previous coffees. Pour - 30 secs .. still too strong. Perhaps I've developed an elevated caffeine sensitivity or something? Rating - 8.2/10 Temporary setback going on here :head: .. nothing to worry about .. I'll be back on top of my game soon.. don't you worry about that (thanks again Joh) 2 options 1. Adjust the grind back to a little coarser. 2. Go back to using a larger 6oz cup (instead of 4oz) To be continued.. (I ain't done yet!)

Here's an interesting little tidbit. When checking out a PV Lusso review over on HB forum ... the reviewer suggested not locking the PF into the group head just prior to pulling the shot. He explained that there is an air pocket in the cylinder that is best removed as it disturbs the puck. It can be removed by holding the PF .. and only half locking it into position when pulling the lever down for pre-infusion. I tried this and as the lever gets down to about horizontal .. you can hear the trapped air being pushed out from the group head. You then lock the PF into its 6 o'clock position ready for the pour. Crikey .. Can this possibly be responsible for the quality of my shots dropping? Surely not. The only other difference in my routine was not tamping the final polish .. and this would, if anything, speed up the pour making it less strong. Pour time was 25s, 20s, 30s. The spent puck is soft to the finger poke and not compacted.

Lacehim · November 2013

on 1385293800:

You can eliminate this step completely by bleeding off ALL the false pressure when you turn the machine on for the first time each day.

Or you could install an antivac. I did mine, where the safety valve is. Put in a F-M-F T piece, reattach the safety valve and install a button antivac. No more false pressure, and only cost $20 or so in parts.

Before

After Out of interest, did your boilers go blue like mine?

Moon · November 2013

I remember reading the thread about that .. would be handy especially in my case where I turn my machine on and off 3 or 4 times every day. I find it most annoying after pulling the shot and going to steam the milk .. only to see the pressure drop 50% of the times due to false pressure .. and having to wait until it gets back to its maximum before being able to froth the milk. #firstworldproblem Mine is only 3 weeks old and is still clean stainless steel colour .. under the insulation. Navy Blue coloured boiler eh .. nice.

Being a Carlton supporter .. I envy you having that.. oh, hang on .. that's right you don't have it anymore.. sold it. I take that 'envy' back then.

conikal · November 2013

on 1385341953:

......He explained that there is an air pocket in the cylinder that is best removed as it disturbs the puck. It can be removed by holding the PF .. and only half locking it into position when pulling the lever down for pre-infusion. I tried this and as the lever gets down to about horizontal .. you can hear the trapped air being pushed out from the group head. You then lock the PF into its 6 o'clock position ready for the pour.

Ahh.. The..... "what happens to all the air in the cylinder when the brew water flows in from the boiler" .... debate ! .....much heated debate on that topic over there ! It goes together with the theory of possibility of "sucking" the puck up out of the basket when you pull the lever down. Try following this discussion if you have the time .. http://www.home-barista.com/levers/basic-lever-group-questions-t26886.html

Moon · November 2013

^ Interesting read.. cheers conikal

[Last night] As recent shots have been too strong .. tried the 6oz larger cup to dilute it. 1. Beans: mixture of leftover Barista, Espresso .. & Guatemala Pour time ? Rating: 8/10 Guatemala from here on 2. Slightly under 17g. 6oz cup. First pull 20 secs - so did a 2nd full pull of lever - 40ml shot Rating: 8.2/10. Definitely nowhere near as nice as earlier single pull 9s in the 4oz cup. I'm liking the richness of the smaller more concentrated 20ml ristretto shot in my lattes.. using less milk. 3. Slightly under 17g. 1 lever pull shot. Pour - 50 secs .. too long --> sinker (puck was soft) 4. Back to 17g (a tad more to dose up slightly) - 4oz cup. No half PF twist to release pressure in cylinder. Pour 40 secs. Rating - 9/10. At least back in the range. The Guatemalan beans not as nice as the Espresso imo. ^ Moony had lost his edge .. but making a comeback 8)

littleroundman · November 2013

on 1385343650:

Out of interest, did your boilers go blue like mine?

Mine is a grey/blue shade, nowhere near as blue as yours. As a side note: mention is often made of PV heat related problems and your pix reminded me to make mention of the fact ALL my electrics have disintegrated due to heat buildup. Cognizant of the potential problem I installed an OE insulation kit, not realizing the major problem would be on the end of the machine where all the electrics are situated and the OE kit doesn't cover the end of the boiler. The on/off rocker switch literally crumbled into dust. The plastic splash guard under the cup holder tray likewise disintegrated Just last week the brain let go with a loud "plunk" which shook the whole machine and tripped the circuit breaker. On checking, I find all the ceramic connector covers are beyond brittle, as is the wiring. I was seriously considering taking the PV out to the pool and giving it some swimming lessons, but luckily for it, have developed a real taste for large pourovers through the CCD. My advice to any prospective purchaser would be to NEVER leave the machine operating all day and to make sure the electrics end of the machine are thoroughly protected

Ol Grumpy · November 2013

on 1385428990:

<snip> I was seriously considering taking the PV out to the pool and giving it some swimming lessons, but.... <snip>

YES, Yes.... Just make sure you get this on video... I predict a YTube viral coming on..... Bwaahahhaha

Moon · November 2013

^ Better still Grumps .. save it for a Coffee meet, as one of a half dozen entertainment skits as we sit around enjoying our coffees. I reckon a disgruntled Barista wielding a sledgehammer over a recently divorced machine would also add value to the event? :lamp:

Whilst my beloved sister is off on a cruise around the Islands off the northern coast of Australia, I am holding the fort & looking after her 4 animals. She has a Sunbeam 6910 .. which is otherwise a decent machine .. only the steam boiler no longer works. When offering up my disappointment at not being able to make a latte .. she replied .. ''boil up some milk in a pot on the stove' Crikey .. no further questions .. the Prosecution rests, your Honor :-X Woke up this morning and wondered where I was? .. it was one of those 'oh no' moments .. I can't jump up and turn on my Lusso. Luckily for me, there is a Cafe nearby that makes a good one. I order the Jumbo and go outside to enjoy my healthy start to the day - coffee and a cigarette .. take off the lid .. wtf .. the top of my latte was caked in chocolate .. so it had to go back. It was too hot anyway, so this time the lady only heated it up to 65 deg which was perfect .. and turned out a very nice coffee. Yep .. a happy ending ^-^ Ok .. back home and it's Lusso time. 30 sec pour, 4oz cup. Rating: 8.6/10 Not big on these Guatemalan beans, although I had been getting Guatemalan green beans to roast up previously. I'm also using the Coles Farmland milk which is not in the same league as Woolies Macro Organic full-cream.. which means that I have to allow for the coffee not being quite as rich & smooth in the delivery of its flavour. Not bad .. only it's quite obvious I have to get my form back. Will be interesting to see whether I can produce a coffee back in the 9s with these beans? The grind might need tweaking as there is a flavour in there (as in other beans) that I don't particularly like .. that is absent when I get it right and produce an above 9 rated coffee. I'm not sure whether a finer or coarser grind will eradicate this in your face mouth flavour.

mycuppa · November 2013

OMG Moony - really ? I'm a bit shocked actually. :o That Guat is the best I've had on deck in many years, it was head and shoulders above all other Guats inbound this year and as a result I snapped up the last 4 tons. Such is my opinion of it I rate it as the best bean in 2013 for me personally. It's a cracker. Like all Guats and hard dense beans, it can be tricky to dial-in and extraction has a very narrow tolerance. If you venture just outside the ideal zone, it bites you with gusto !

Moon · November 2013

^ I'll be putting in another order in about a week. Espresso and Barista get the nod .. jury still out on Guatemala. I still have about 350g of Guatemala to play with before reordering .. given that it is a harder bean than say the Espresso and barista .. would you suggest a slightly finer or coarser grind? Jeffmate .. get back to me in the next week .. your Golden Bean experience will be much appreciated. In the meantime .. here's the plan.. I'll try a coarser grind, and if that doesn't work, I'll try a finer grind. How does that sound .. fair call? Anyway, rest assured .. I'll be giving the Guatemala my best shot.

Here we go .. coarser grind? After pre-infusion, I let the lever go and it jumped up .. probably due to some air in the cylinder that I didn't release with the half twist of the PF thing as I pulled the lever down. Looked like it was going to be too quick .. so did the Fellini move. Pour was around 30 secs. Came out a nice coffee .. can't rate though .. being the first for the day. Stay tuned.. I'm onto it 8)

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