Breville's new dual boiler machine BES900

Brett H · September 2011

on 1315955115:

Okay, so I met Phil at Breville HQ yesterday morning and had him adjust the OPV, no replacement parts necessary and the whole process took around 10 minutes. It would have been faster if we weren't so busy wagging our chins. I must say that Phil is a credit to Breville. We have all heard about his industry experience and passion for coffee but how many project/product managers would go out of their way by making time to do something like this right before going on an O/S trip? Not many. I was expecting to be told to take it a service centre and to leave if for inspection and that I would get a phone call call when done - so to Phil I say thanks heaps I remember doing the same in my store manager days, performing basic repairs on site or in store as necessary to keep the customers happy rather than booking in a call out from our techos. Now, being IT savvy and technically but not mechanically minded, meant I was too busy looking around the room at all the other cool toys rather than focusing my attention on exactly what was being done to the BDB. I can tell you that very few tools were needed/used and after 3 or 4 adjustments the calibration was complete. Bearing in mind that I have only used a few espresso machines and this is the first with an OPV I am trying to reserve my comments as to the resulting shots until I have a few under my belt post adjustment. The pours are different and as such I'll be monitoring/adjusting my dosing and distribution over the coming days.

Good form Phil and Breville! Good to see that you were looked after so well Marc!

Muscles · September 2011

I am a happy camper :D I now have an OPV functioning the way it was intended... I can notice a difference in the pours (more viscosity) and a fair bit more body in the cup. Dare I say more flavour or perhaps different flavour? My pallete is by no means of cupping standard but I have noticed a difference since the adjustment. The machine/pump is also marginally louder post adjustment. AM, I haven't got the Sunbeam anymore so I couldn't tset using the dual floor... For the purpose of making a vid I had to create a make shift blind filter using the dual floor single with some glad wrap under the rubber cleaning disc and only a miniscule amount of water managed to escape - less than a ml. Anyway here is a vid to show the gauge using my blind filter:

Now the fun part is getting the dose and distribution sorted (again!) and I know already it is going to be worthwhile. I'll post some vids of the pours once I get it all nutted out. Thanks again Phil

shape_shifter · September 2011

Muscles, did Phil mention anything about fixing any of the others, it seems that this is an across the board problem, I'm sure it would be a huge expense to do a recall to fix this.

Muscles · September 2011

Hi Nic, Not all machines have the issue. They are now several batches in and I am sure we would be hearing a lot more online if they were all affected. We do know that other fixes for the same issue have been performed and AM stated earlier in this thread that the machine he got to play with worked fine and so have others. My machine was adjusted in less than 10 minutes so I hardly think a recall would be necessary. I said before, if the OPV issue is the only apparent teething issue for the BDB then Bravo Breville. I still haven't found a machine with the same host of features for anywhere close to the price and the one thing I am thankful of is the fact that I didn't pay for a bench test as part of my purchase and still end up with this issue oh and I didn't need to make a cardboard gauge afterall :P Also, my research in to OPV's in need of adjustment brought up many a thread online. It seems this problem has affected several brands over the years, so it's not like the issue is Breville related.

Muscles · September 2011

AM, BIG imrovement in the cup and as for sound I'd say it has added another 20-25% in total volume. I've got my technique sorted (hardly changed anything post OPV adjustment really - just a lighter tamp) using some CR Tarrazu - yummo! 19g in to the 18g VST and 60ml out over 35 seconds using a 9 second 60% preinfusion gives a nice amount of body and the pour looks like it's drizzling now instead of gushing like it was.

kywong · September 2011

Thanks Muscles for keeping us updated. Can't tell you how glad I am to hear that you saw a big improvement in the cup post adjustment, I've been struggling to get more out of my coffee than the supposedly less forgiving Silvia. Looking forward to having mine checked.

Muscles · September 2011

You're very welcome guys. The best thing about having it adjusted is that I now know it is working and IF I were to have any shortcomings in the cup would know that I need to look at myself rather than at the machine. So to some it up, it's given me peace of mind. I haven't temp surfed yet but am enjoying playing around with the preinfusion a lot. I just got some nice Rwandan and Ethiopian bean sin the mail so more fun times ahead. I need to start logging all my beans and the BDB's settings me thinks...

DoubleRistretto · September 2011

thanks Muscles, nothing like user feedback! also interesting how this seems to have one quiet, now that the hype has gone down... don't know whether or not they're selling bucket-loads of the things - Phil?

Brett H · September 2011

on 1316656770:

I see on cg that the release in the use may have been delayed... How many are unaware or may not understand the impact of a non performing opv. From what some have posted else where and the early replys, one might assume that the issue may not even be recognised..

Interesting.... Nice pick-up mate! hopefully our forum and Phil's/Muscles' great result will serve as good info for those whose unit has this issue.

Koffee_Kosmo · September 2011

I made mention of the BES900 final test procedure on the production line back on page 14 post 333 Please don't take this post the wrong way as I write this post based on hundreds of posts that I have read on the subject both from Breville reps and laypersons For the length of time taken to develop the BES900, to the teething delays of the first production run . Breville decided to start with a limited production run to get it just right In all honesty with such a limited production run, all machines should have been perfect prior to shipping Most statements have been in the lines of testing and adjusting to set parameters because its a premium product Now I understand that during a production run of thousands of units, a small percentage may have faults but not the first run of less than 500 units KK

Cuppacoffee · September 2011

AM, I think you are right, which is why I contacted Breville today and provided the following information on CS, and now here. Having had several discussions with Breville regarding the higher than expected gauge readings on some of the 900 series of machines, I have some further information from Breville. 1. The initial run of 900's were all calibrated using a scace device to 9 bar whilst in production, plus or minus .5 bar. In the real world, some machines that were calibrated this way gave high readings eg. 12 bar. 2. Machines that are now being manufactured for here and the overseas market, are being calibrated during production with a block filter instead of the scace. They will read either on or close to 9 bar in the real world. 3. If you own a machine that read high, then: a) It will not harm the machine b) It can be adjusted to 9 bar and is approximately a 5 minute job. No parts are replaced during the process. c) Breville are ensuring at least one major service centre in each city is capable of performing the work. This is already in place in Sydney and Brisbane with others to follow soon. Please call Breville if you have a machine that has a high reading and you would like to arrange to have the adjustment made. And please accept my sincere apologies if I misled owners or potential buyers in any way. FWIW, the machine I have at home reads high, yet makes great coffee. Cheers Den

Brett H · September 2011

on 1316825799:

The issue is the lack of any real support.. A couple of posts and more and then this from a user (attempting to do their best to comment and support other users) ******** Welcome among the BDB owners. There is discussion about the pressure gauge earlier in this string. Mine also shows 12 while I get great coffee. The machines are factory set at 9 bar, however the gauges are not particularly accurate. We cannot make any pressure adjustment. It beats me why there is a gauge if it is of no particular use. ********* [size=12pt]Someone needs to tell them it is not the gauge or send them the link to here :o !!!! AND That with a little effort from Breville, they can enhance their coffee experience... In the short or maybe even long term, they miss out..[/size]. Why is Breville NOT being proactive about this... A great chance to win Brownie points, but they keep quite... Ummmm, makes one wonder what else they might know about and be keeping quite ? Ummmm, Why the delay to the USA

Given that some of the early units found their way into specialty coffee retailers I'm sure we'll see proactive actions from those guys in relation to their customers. We can't expect the same from the big retailers but that is why many have shopped at smaller specialty retailers: peace of mind and excellent proactive after-sales service. I can't speak highly enough of Merlos and Chris at Bezzera here in Brisbae for their attention to detail, passionate service and outstanding product knowledge... I don't imagine that the service is any less down south given the competitive nature contemporary retail. You are spot on AM, an opportunity for Brownie points presents but not for Breville alone.

Brett H · September 2011

on 1316833745:

Thanks Brett... Special deals on the BDB at about $1290 ? And for $199 one can own the Smart grinder so X-Mas should be a great time for super specials. However, it is NOT Always about being right.... ie. OPV stated performance and what users saw and who / what to blame.... It was about, there is an issue being raised; so lets get on top of it and get it sorted and if need be, an action plan to address those units with a real issue. Sounds like a way forward to me... Ops, not every one saw it that way :o However, due to the assumptions by many and SS stuff by others, those ones who spoke up; have been treated with little regard for their actual "real world and relevant engineering experience". There are a few people that I have dealt with over the years that I could not abide by and nor would I have a drink with them.... But my god, I respected their actual technical and or other skill sets... Coffee seems to be more about Twitter / FB and Social standing and Name dropping, rather than real world hands on... But now we move on... Must go and do my training ASAP... "MayBel says I am too technical. "

I completely agree! Web2.0 has served some businesses very well but the danger is that words that could be delivered with a good humored wink, can seem cold and harsh on a web page. You and I have seen first hand that the BDB is potentially a good little domestic machine; but, when a transparent approach to marketing is promised and then only partly delivered (how many posts and PM's have been deleted that could have been argued intelligently instead of hidden from view) or in some cases delivered with vitriol and disdain: I find myself irrationally hard pressed to recommend this machine in favor of pld favorites Silvia and Lelit. Sure, I'm not selling machines every day but I'm asked for advice on a weekly basis due to the nature of my work and my obviously unhealthy coffee addiction. Web2.0 is an amazing innovation to modern communication and advertising but the results can often be contrary to the intention. SS producing shots that look like liquid gold from a Sunbeam surely can't be Breville's marketing intention. The owners of these fine machines will prove to be it's saviours. Photos like Ros' and positive owners comments in these threads will help this little Aussie take it to the world. Unless there is a problem with the design for 110v in which case they're stuffed. Aussies are the best innovators and inventors, so this would be unlikely. More likely would be increased cost pressure from China and currency issues along with slowing discretionary spending in the US. Sometimes the time is just not right.... exhibit A: My shares portfolio

Vinitasse · September 2011

on 1316829224:

AM, I think you are right,... Cheers Den

I think you should frame that one AM

Cuppacoffee · September 2011

Quote from: Vinitasse: I think you should frame that one AM Maybe I should frame it. ;D Quote from: Angermanagement There are others more worth while Yes, I guess we can all say that.

Muscles · September 2011

on 1316829224:

AM, I think you are right, which is why I contacted Breville today and provided the following information on CS, and now here. Having had several discussions with Breville regarding the higher than expected gauge readings on some of the 900 series of machines, I have some further information from Breville. 1. The initial run of 900's were all calibrated using a scace device to 9 bar whilst in production, plus or minus .5 bar. In the real world, some machines that were calibrated this way gave high readings eg. 12 bar. 2. Machines that are now being manufactured for here and the overseas market, are being calibrated during production with a block filter instead of the scace. They will read either on or close to 9 bar in the real world. 3. If you own a machine that read high, then: a) It will not harm the machine b) It can be adjusted to 9 bar and is approximately a 5 minute job. No parts are replaced during the process. c) Breville are ensuring at least one major service centre in each city is capable of performing the work. This is already in place in Sydney and Brisbane with others to follow soon. Please call Breville if you have a machine that has a high reading and you would like to arrange to have the adjustment made. And please accept my sincere apologies if I misled owners or potential buyers in any way. FWIW, the machine I have at home reads high, yet makes great coffee. Cheers Den

Sorry Den but you forgot d) You can buy a piece of cardboard on CS that was designed by a sponsor and built by a member to be stuck over the gauge

Also, I assume you have used machines with both correctly and incorrectly set OPV's - what difference have YOU noticed??

Muscles · September 2011

on 1316829819:

Given that some of the early units found their way into specialty coffee retailers I'm sure we'll see proactive actions from those guys in relation to their customers.

Umm, like what? I doubt they'll be telling owners to go and get the BDB's OPV's adjusted - more like if it tastes OK leave it... Units from the Majors and the Specialties both had the same problem (bench test or not) and regardless of where you bought it you need to get it fixed by Breville. FYI, David Jones offered a no questions refund or swap but I chose to go to Phil (Breville) as it was a very easy fix.

on 1316941557:

The positive outcome, is that there appears to now be some that have recognised and acknowledged an opportunity for improvement in a product... The winners will be the users and that is what it should be about and has been my focus from the outset. The fact that many are yet to understand the operation of an OPV and that the gauge is quite accurate, is some what further down the road. Muscles.. Have ya moved hose yet and got ya system up and running ? Is ya wife all OK ? Will be in your area on Monday ... Again :D

Hi AM, got the move done (just) and will be sleeping early tonight! The wife had it easy, she had the baby shower on while I was lifting... I moved the BDB and SJ first so we could have espresso breaks during the move and I'm glad I did

I've now noticed what a difference ambient temp and humidity can have in the cup and I am surprised how much of a difference there is between the two kitchens. I had to adjust my grind and dose a bit coarser and smaller a few times to get it right at the new place. Give me a bit more notice next time you are in the area and we can go for a cup...

Cuppacoffee · September 2011

on 1317011839:

Sorry Den but you forgot d) You can buy a piece of cardboard on CS that was designed by a sponsor and built by a member to be stuck over the gauge Also, I assume you have used machines with both correctly and incorrectly set OPV's - what difference have YOU noticed??

No Muscles, I didn't forget. I've apologised once and did so sincerely. It's your choice to either accept it or not. In response to your question, yes, I have used both and personally, I was able to reproduce very similar if not the same results, using different grind settings and dose. I was however inclined to think the machine set at 9 bar had more body than the other, though it wasn't a blind test and I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

Muscles · September 2011

on 1317015943:

No Muscles, I didn't forget. I've apologised once and did so sincerely. It's your choice to either accept it or not.

Accepted.

In response to your question, yes, I have used both and personally, I was able to reproduce very similar if not the same results, using different grind settings and dose. I was however inclined to think the machine set at 9 bar had more body than the other, though it wasn't a blind test and I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

Interesting, I had good results with the 11+ bar but noticeably better results at 9 bar, both with taste and body. Did you notice the difference in machine noise? With the BDB set at 9 bar it creates more vibration and reverb than I was expecting but am happy to live with...

Cuppacoffee · September 2011

Thankyou Marc, I do appreciate that. If I ever get this new shop up and running you'll have to come in and have a coffee on the house. Can't say that I noticed a difference in sound - then again, I wasn't listening out for it. Back re the 9 bar/12 bar issue, I suppose I didn't see it to be of great concern because many (maybe the majority) of imported Italian semi commercial machines are set at 12 bar out of the box. Perhaps the main reason we adjust them is because of local expectations, and that we don't tend to use much robusta. If a machine used in Italy were set at 9 bar, it would likely be considered faulty or in need of a higher set OPV. I'm not trying to make excuses. I was at fault for not pressing the issue earlier. Ultimately, I think that at 9 bar, the Breville and most other machines are more forgiving of grind and dose than if they are set at a higher pressure. Ergo a better extraction. That's just my opinion - I really don't have any hard evidence except my observations.

UNM · September 2011

I wonder if the pressure adjustment will be to produce a 9 bar extraction pressure, a 9 bar gauge pressure, or something else. This could depend on who is doing the adjustment, but hopefully Breville will have a clearly documented adjustment procedure to at least ensure consistency. Just curious. Muscles - any idea how yours was adjusted?

Muscles · September 2011

I have come to conclude that many people whom we all assume to have a thorough working knowledge and massive industry experience in fact do not, hence they try to use any owner's comments as way to discredit the owner themself and enhance the image of the machine. If I had not mentioned the "placebo effect" in my earlier post I highly doubt it would have been mentioned elsewhere. Was it good before, sure. Is it better post OPV adjustment/correction - DAMN RIGHT IT IS.

shape_shifter · September 2011

Oh what and the registration date of a business is only in 2009!!! I'm not a bitch really, just say it like I see it!!!

Brett H · October 2011

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/297810_10150326530993686_21370828685_7890290_1371970610_n.jpg This is some pretty darn fine blackboard art! Why would anyone in the modern design world operate on a blackboard unless it was a photographical nightmare (for the PR team) to do otherwise. I see the box of chalk but why are there white board markers? Let's play insert the caption: 1. "I'm a little teapot....."

mcknightp · October 2011

on 1317533162:

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/297810_10150326530993686_21370828685_7890290_1371970610_n.jpg This is some pretty darn fine blackboard art! Why would anyone in the modern design world operate on a blackboard unless it was a photographical nightmare (for the PR team) to do otherwise. I see the box of chalk but why are there white board markers? Let's play insert the caption: 1. "I'm a little teapot....."

I think this post sums up the culture & mentality of this forum in general. Pretty disappointing when an innovative Aussie company takes on presenting its home grown products to the likes of Intelligentsia, Stumptown, Counter Culture, Third Rail, Joes, Dallis Bros in their own front yard & gets lampooned for it. For the record all the above were blown away by Breville's approach, technology and the 900's performance. Cheers, Phil

UNM · October 2011

on 1317533162:

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/297810_10150326530993686_21370828685_7890290_1371970610_n.jpg This is some pretty darn fine blackboard art! Why would anyone in the modern design world operate on a blackboard unless it was a photographical nightmare (for the PR team) to do otherwise. I see the box of chalk but why are there white board markers?

My initial reaction was that he must be in America. I worked in Silicon Valley for years and was surprised how common blackboards were. White boards were common too, but coming from the UK, I hadn't seen a blackboard in years. Perhaps it is just a cultural thing, but as long as they are FFP ( Fit For Purpose), why not use them? Phil - as referenced elsewhere in this thread among others, sometimes fine nuances get missed in posts on a forum. I could be wrong, but don't think Brett's post was trying to lampoon breville. Rather, it seemed to be pointing to the irony of the rather low tech presentation medium. That's my 2c for now.

UNM · October 2011

Bit OT, but I actually have a slate board and slate pencil at home, as used to be used in schools (before my time). Back on topic: I am still curious how the bdb pressure adjustment is done. Depending on process followed, some owners could end up with brew pressure substantially below 9 bar.

Brett H · October 2011

on 1317596575:

Phil - as referenced elsewhere in this thread among others, sometimes fine nuances get missed in posts on a forum. I could be wrong, but don't think Brett's post was trying to lampoon breville. Rather, it seemed to be pointing to the irony of the rather low tech presentation medium. That's my 2c for now.

Oh Dear

Koffee_Kosmo · October 2011

We at Crema have freedom of speech My personal opinion is that we should let all posts stand on there merits Explanations or clarifications can be easily sought as some have differing thought patterns, both in the writing and in the reading Further to the explanation given above My interpretation as I see it is, in the photo you have a blackboard - and as a contradiction whiteboard markers available to be used What one does not see in the photo and I assume that there is a whiteboard somewhere close & ready to be wheeled in, hence the available marking pens Easy as KK

Intense Coffee · October 2011

Besides which, when it comes to Sales and/or training delivery, a variety of technologies is often used and recommended to vary the delivery and maintain interest. In addition it can also be dependant on what is on offer at the venue in question, so having alternatives is being better prepared. While I'm not sure what the circumstances were in terms of the photo in questions, it seems to have caught everyones attention, which was probably its intention.

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